Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[What'saCobra?]

Whilst the early 260/289's were certainly AC Cobras and sold and raced as such, I would have little beef with calling all the 428/427's Shelby Cobras or Ford Cobras (with which the latter, FORD would have strongly disagreed, to lower liabilities).

AC billed FORD for the chassis and FORD netted the remittances from the Ford dealership sales with the standard engine and tranny invoices and sent the net to Shelby, minus some adjustments. Care was taken to show a modest taxable profit at Shelby for auto sales, helped after 1964 by GT 350 (etc) sales.

Shelby also was a sub-contractor to FORD for various projects, eventually including GT40 racing against Ferrari. In truth, Shelby American made precious little profit and without the Goodyear franchise and FORD projects might have also been scored as a Reventlov "hobby loss" entity by the IRS.

For instance, once FORD dropped any subsidy of the 289, all factory racing and manufacture stopped nearly overnight. So an otherwise fine classic car dropped off the edge of the world. It could not pay its way. But, it was a fine car in every way, but consumed by its own excesses as expressed in the 427's.

To my tastes, the sweeter racer and streeter were the BProduction 289's, without the excesses and drama-queen Webers... Lighter, quicker on tight tracks and less "fat a$$" bad boy image. Mine were always confused with Healeys, until the light changed. They were really great "Q" ships. No side pipes were tattletaling the punter's risk. 140 MPH at 7000 RPM was more than enough on the street. And little money easily brought around 350 HP. With the same street HP as the better Vettes and over 1000#'s less weight, Chevies were doomed.

When I bot ex-factory Bp racer CSX 2137 for $3750 in 1971, it became my favorite forever. Simply wonderful sportier. Very serious sleeper. 1900 lbs or so. Sunoco 260 and 10:1 heads. Firestone GP race rain tires on the street.

More is not always better. Ask Donna Mae Mims. Smarter is better. Adding lightness always pays. Ask Leon Musk. And Lotus' chairman Chapman.

Similarly, once the FORD 427 and Hemi blocks were outlawed by NASCAR, it's use to FORD disappeared and the Cobra 427/8 cars were lost forthwith. Of course, neither did they sell; in my opinion, because they were too expensive and excessive compared to 'Vettes and Jags. Too much fender, too much fuel and too much $$. Big depreciations were killer.

Frankly, my dear, I think the loss of the AC Cobra 289 to the excesses of simply too much of everything was a sorry day.

Terrible price to pay for a few seconds (or less!) per lap.

[A-Snake]

FWIW, By far the most used term on SA invoices for 289 Cobras in total was 'Cobra Ford'. The most used term for the 260 Cobras alone was 'Shelby AC Cobra.'

[Trevor Legate]

Had my first taste of actually driving the Cobra circa 1980. I spent a decent time behind the wheel of the ex-factory AC Cobra 289 followed shortly after by the 427. I loved the first and hated the second in equal measure. But that's just me (although I know I'm right...)

The car was always expensive since Shelby had secured a personal agreement with AC to pay him £50 (around $65) per car, a not inconsiderable sum in 1962. I doubt the Ford bean counters knew about that one.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Had my first taste of actually driving the Cobra circa 1980. I spent a decent time behind the wheel of the ex-factory AC Cobra 289 followed shortly after by the 427. I loved the first and hated the second in equal measure. But that's just me (although I know I'm right...)

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. Certainly the 289 is more of a streetable car, whereas the 427 is more of a race car. On the street, I never felt my 427 (Windsor based) was getting enough RPM to exercise it, even on the highway. A 289 would have allowed a little more operation at the higher RPM range. Obviously on the track the 427 would feel fine.

For this reason when/if I get another Cobra it will be a 289.

[Brooklyn-427]

Ultimately AC would of sourced a fresh engine for the ACE eventually, Ford V8 or not ... devoid of Ole Shel who knows! They must of realised that times had changed, Jaguar and Healey had moved forward and were taking a sales lead with cars like the E type and 100/6.
TVR may have been a option for Shelby, they was more of a company that had the direction he was looking for.
Overall the Ace was the traditional British sports roadster, 289 car is car that became the iconic 427 .. History is written and cant be altered or changed.Its the chicken and egg.

[Brooklyn-427]

The British sportscar market was alive with other brands that all had ties to other engine manufacturers Bristol and Jenson were not sportscar manfacturers they built luxury gentleman express GT cars, that wasnt what Shelby was looking for.
Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Basically without AC, Shelby may of not had the sucess he had overall, remeber he was just a worn out old race driver with health problems and big ideas!!!! It takes 2 too tango.

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision they both had seperately.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

The British sportscar market was alive with other brands that all had ties to other engine manufacturers Bristol and Jenson were not sportscar manfacturers they built luxury gentleman express GT cars, that wasnt what Shelby was looking for.
Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Basically without AC, Shelby may of not had the sucess he had overall, remeber he was just a worn out old race driver with health problems and big ideas!!!! It takes 2 too tango.

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision they both had seperately.

Completely fallacious. Without Shelby the Ace would have remained a nice little sports car and forgotten by history for the most part. No Carroll Shelby and Shelby American no Cobra. Period. As to the Cobra's success, AC had very little to do with that. Ever heard of Remmington, Brock, Miles, Gurney, Bondurant, McDonald.. ? I could go on for a awhile but won't.

Lets stop re-writing history shall we?

[REAL 1]

Completely fallacious. Without Shelby the Ace would have remained a nice little sports car and forgotten by history for the most part. No Carroll Shelby and Shelby American no Cobra. Period. As to the Cobra's success, AC had very little to do with that. Ever heard of Remmington, Brock, Miles, Gurney, Bondurant, McDonald.. ?

Shelby was a worn out tired race car driver? Really? Fact is Shelby talked and AC listened. Have you been living under a rock?. The man was activily involved in the automobile industry from early 1962 to his death in 2012. I could go on for a awhile but won't.

Lets stop re-writing history shall we?

[Brooklyn-427]

There is maybe 25 or so key manufacturers in the world with a reproduction of one car that is the most copied car in the world ever, so they must of done something right when you take away all the past and present media that surrounds it.

[Brooklyn-427]

Similarly, once the FORD 427 and Hemi blocks were outlawed by NASCAR, it's use to FORD disappeared and the Cobra 427/8 cars were lost forthwith. Of course, neither did they sell; in my opinion, because they were too expensive and excessive compared to 'Vettes and Jags. Too much fender, too much fuel and too much $$. Big depreciations were killer.

To me that just comfirms that Shelby and Ford just seen this a race car project to market their new showroom products.
AC cars continued with Mk111 289 car at that time because there was no market for the FE engine variant in England. And sales were falling back due to other reasons. The cobra was part of AC`s product line that had started 10 or more years before with the ACE they had too continue until they had another car to replace it with. Unlike Shelby who just dropped it like a lead weight too move forward with other new projects. It was yesterdays race car , speed and technogoly had progressed quickly.

[Brooklyn-427]

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision

I was referring to the future replica reproduction scene that came about after the fact.
i doubt shelby would of even bothered getting back into the cobra scene if it wasnt for people like Arntz and Angliss who started it all off again.
They was just old race cars that made his name one people widely knew.

[Brooklyn-427]

O`man he couldnt race competively because of heart problems he would of just faded into the history books as a successful racing driver who won lemans for a English car team. Yeah now he is some kind of folklore hero for what he done to the automotive industry.. What ever happened to John Delorean.

[Brooklyn-427]

There aint many ex-racing drivers that have a second breath after there success on the track. Maybe some of the more recent drivers but back then most just continued out of the limelight.
Shelby was very lucky to get the backing from Ford after chevrolet rejected him and the basis of the whole car from AC Cars. Otherwise it just happens he might of been looking elsewhere... Ford liked the idea of having him marketing there engine products with competition racing.

[Brooklyn-427]

There is a modern take on this story that somewhat unrelated but similar.
Morgan sports cars .. they lost the Rover/buick v8 engine, not the only engine in there range of sportscars but the most powerful offering they had.
Now they use BMW supplied V8 engines... i doubt BMW went grovelling to morgan for them to use their engines. I somewhat imagine Morgan put a heart felt business plan to them for the use and supply of BMW drivetrain products.
I never heard of a story of AC cars head hunting Ole Shel...
He took a chance on AC it worked in his favour , AC was not short of budding people to take the ACE forward ... If only they had followed on with Ken Rudd, that would of been a interesting twist on

[Brooklyn-427]

What alot of people forget is AC could of contracted any number of engineers to carry out similar work to what Shelbys cailfornia hotrodders done. England was filled with talented guys who had cut there heels on racing Bentleys Aston Martins and such like.

Ken Miles wasnt the only tea drinking English Knight with super skills that Shelby could of hooked up with back in them days. He was another string to the Shelby bow at that time....

Im not trying to re write history im just saying what alot of the Brits here sometimes touch on but fail to fully engage with. There is alot of underline things that got over looked in the grand story of this.
Its somewhat a single sided story sometimes on a double edged sword.

[HealeyRick]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

It could have also been applied to the Austin Healey 3000 had Donald Healey liked the idea, or a Jensen or an Aston Martin. It just happened to be an AC. Fortunately.....

The Healey involvement with Shelby's plan is pretty well known. Shelby came to Donald Healey with a proposal to put Chevrolet motors into the Healey 3000. Shelby had been a Healey factory driver and they were well known to each other. Donald was no stranger to V8 power and swapped a Chevy V8 into his personal Jensen 541 and favored Shelbys proposal and was willing to provide Shelby with a Healey chassis. It was Austin, not Donald Healey that nixed the idea. Word is too, that Chevrolet had no interest in providing motors to power a car that would be a likely Corvette killer.

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Most of the reason Healey died was the implementation of the US safety and emission standards. According to Donald Healey in his autobiography, there was no way the 3000 could meet the side impact standards nor could a catalytic converter be added under the terribly low-slung Healey chassis. Nevertheless, if Healey continued, they would have used the 3 liter 6 cylinder Austin Princess motor built by Rolls Royce. Three of these prototypes were built and are known as Rolls-Healeys or Healey 4000s. Austin had developed a twin cam head for the motor, which Healey really wanted to get their hands on. But it was Lord Stokes, head of Leyland, that was hot to rid himself of Healey and MG in favor of Triumph, which he used to head. MG continued on and came out with the MGC as a replacement for the Healey, although the 6 cylinder C motor was not based on the Healey motor as some think. It's interesting to note that despite the availability of the Buick-Olds-Rover motor, it took the independent work of Ken Costello putting them into MGBs to drag MG into eventually offering their own factory version in 1973.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

What alot of people forget is AC could of contracted any number of engineers to carry out similar work to what Shelbys cailfornia hotrodders done. England was filled with talented guys who had cut there heels on racing Bentleys Aston Martins and such like.

Ken Miles wasnt the only tea drinking English Knight with super skills that Shelby could of hooked up with back in them days. He was another string to the Shelby bow at that time....

Im not trying to re write history im just saying what alot of the Brits here sometimes touch on but fail to fully engage with. There is alot of underline things that got over looked in the grand story of this.
Its somewhat a single sided story sometimes on a double edged sword.

First why do you post 4 times to continue a train of thought? (if that is one train of thought).

Why is it in any way relevant as to what AC could of/might have/should have done? We are talking what was done. You know...if I had wheels I'd have been a race car. Part of the magic of the Shelby story is that it wasn't a car company with millions and years of experience in manufacturing and design or backed by or receiving money from any government that created a world beater.... it is the fact that it was just a bunch of American "Hot Rodders" who accomplished what they did and created one of the most iconic cars of all time.

Yes, there were other talented English drivers in that period of time. And your point is?????????

You're a Brit? Really???? I envisioned you sitting next to a moonshine Still in the hills of Kentucky chew'n some tabbackky. .

[Trevor Legate]

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

Trevor,

I believe that one person on this thread is perhaps misguided. perhaps he read something by W.W. and believes it to be fact, instead of the twisted fiction we are all used to. The quote "me thinks thou protest too much" comes in to play.

But then again, what would "I" know


Bill S.

[Xack]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Trevor,

I believe that one person on this thread is perhaps misguided. perhaps he read something by W.W. and believes it to be fact, instead of the twisted fiction we are all used to. The quote "me thinks thou protest too much" comes in to play.

But then again, what would "I" know


Bill S.

I agree whole-heartedly... We all agree that we love the Cobra and what it is. Why and who are interesting enough, but not really that important. Down to the point. We love Cobras. Don't get lost in the details which are nothing more than a place to put your curiosity from the love of the car. While Carroll Shelby is an important figure and most statements to honor him are worthwhile, the fact remains, it's the car, not Carroll we love. I would invite you to develop/post on the Carroll Shelby Club website(s).