Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Xack

I agree whole-heartedly... We all agree that we love the Cobra and what it is. Why and who are interesting enough, but not really that important. Down to the point. We love Cobras. Don't get lost in the details which are nothing more than a place to put your curiosity from the love of the car. While Carroll Shelby is an important figure and most statements to honor him are worthwhile, the fact remains, it's the car, not Carroll we love. I would invite you to develop/post on the Carroll Shelby Club website(s).

Absolutely incorrect. While there are many that didn't like him for some of the shannanigans he pulled while alive there are also as many if not more that loved and respected him for all the good and great things he did. I'm one of them. Btw did you ever buy anything with his autograph? People paid for it if you didn't know.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

My brain hurts too. Pretty much everywhere he uses "of" should be "have". Probably went to school in the 80s when they ditched spelling and grammar.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

My brain hurts too. Pretty much everywhere he uses "of" should be "have". Probably went to school in the 80s when they ditched spelling and grammar.

I believe the Millennials and the advent of texting are responsible for the lost art of spelling and grammar. Don't blame it on the 1980's.

[Joe's Garage]

Putting a V8 in an AC roadster was not Shelby's brainchild, this had already been done by a Brit as early as '57 with other European racers following suit in '59. Shelby got into the picture in '62 after the success of those early prototypes had been well documented. You can think of Shelby as the "father" of the cobra in the USA, but the genius of the idea and path finding of the design (including body style) clearly resides with the Brits.

[REAL 1]

Joe'sGarage:

So tell me...how many FIA world championships did AC win with their V8 power Rudd Speed or any other power train they were thinking of using in the Ace between '57 and '62 or for that matter enlighten me as any major racing event AC won with it sanctioned by a major racing body such as the FIA?

Fact is AC was looking to hang on to a sales market by putting a small V8 into the Ace but they had no thoughts, drive or intention of making it a world beater like Shelby. But for Shelby AC would have sold however many V8 powered Aces they would have sold and after a while the car would have become dated and resigned to the history books as another nice little English sports car. Thats all it would have remained.

Shelby is the one who took what was there, refined it for performance, developed it, renamed it and took it racing world wide. He made it recognizable worldwide, made it a household name and an icon. Its is just that simple.

[twobjshelbys]

All of the comparisons of Shelby/AC to Morgan/BMW, etc are apples and oranges. The latter are producing cars for a consumer market. Shelby was looking for a frame/body to propel his engine around the track. Shelby didn't put a 289 in a AC to help save AC. He did it because he had a reliable source for a lightweight body that when combined with the 289 engine (first a 260) and provided a race car with a competitive advantage. The fact that some of the cars were sold to the public was because of homologation requirements (that still exist today.)

[LMH]

Oh brother... Half-truth, opinion and just plain wrong. Here we go again.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Oh brother... Half-truth, opinion and just plain wrong. Here we go again.
Larry

This is the Internet. Did you expect something else?

[LMH]

I'm a product of and came of age (so to speak) in the 80's! I can spell, to some extent and use proper grammar, also to some extent. Sometimes, words and phrases like 'like", "gag me", "tripindicular" and 'tubular" find their way out as well!
Larry

[Rickd]

Wow .. thought this thread had ended after page 2 with the unanimous "no Shelby = no cobra", but now I see some Brit apparently feels that somehow it was AC that is responsible for the birth, existence, and success of the cobra? Because in hindsight "the Brits had the talent to have done it if they had so chosen"? But they didn't. It is like saying, after looking at yesterdays winning lottery number, "Oh I am familiar with those numbers, I could have arranged them in that order and won".

Shelby was not some old washed up race car driver. He was an incredibly competitive racing program developer. He needed a lightweight sports car to put a small block V8 in. Requested chassis modifications from AC to handle the power. Got Ford to pony up a 260 to start, and after getting 289's in the car .. took it racing on the US circuit from coast to coast. Had to sell some due to homologation rules. So the "public" got to drive and race as well.

Shelby had a vision, and a plan. The plan was attacking the USA sports car racing circuit as part of developing a race car to compete in the FIA circuit. AC had a nice little - very pretty - car, on an island just off the European continent, and no plan or vision whatsoever, other than primarily getting another 4 cylinder engine to continue enjoying the countryside.

No Shelby .. no cobra .. and no cobra "replicas".

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Rickd

,,,AC had a nice little - very pretty - car, on an island just off the European continent, and no plan or vision whatsoever, other than primarily getting another 4 cylinder engine to continue enjoying the countryside,,,

Another one who knows not of what he speaks -

AC ACE History
Early cars used AC's elderly 100 bhp (75 kW) two-litre overhead cam straight-six engine (circa 1953)

From 1956, there was the option of Bristol Cars' two-litre 120 bhp (89 kW) straight-six with 3 downdraught carburettors and slick four-speed gearbox.

In 1961 a new 2.6-litre (2,553 cc /155.8 cu in) straight-six 'Ruddspeed' option was available, adapted by Ken Rudd from the unit used in the Ford Zephyr. It used three Weber or SU carburetors and either a 'Mays' or an iron cast head. This setup boosted the car's performance further, with some versions tuned to 170 bhp (127 kW), providing a top speed of 130 mph (209 km/h) and 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in 8.1 seconds.

Had AC not hooked up with Shelby I'm sure a much more refined AC ACE would have continued to evolve, the Ruddspeed was a formidable racer in its' own right at the time. Shelby came along and continued what AC had already started. As I said in post #103, Brits were the first to put V8's in the ACE, not Shelby.

The fact is, Shelby was a value-added re-seller for AC Bristol in the USA and nothing more. Give credit where credit is due, Shelby stuffed a larger V8 in a British roadster and called it a "Cobra", that's it. This whole thing reminds me of the history surrounding Tesla vs. Edison. Edison gets all the credit but it was done on Tesla's back using his inventions and patents.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Another one who knows not of what he speaks -

AC ACE History
Early cars used AC's elderly 100 bhp (75 kW) two-litre overhead cam straight-six engine (circa 1953)

From 1956, there was the option of Bristol Cars' two-litre 120 bhp (89 kW) straight-six with 3 downdraught carburettors and slick four-speed gearbox.

In 1961 a new 2.6-litre (2,553 cc /155.8 cu in) straight-six 'Ruddspeed' option was available, adapted by Ken Rudd from the unit used in the Ford Zephyr. It used three Weber or SU carburetors and either a 'Mays' or an iron cast head. This setup boosted the car's performance further, with some versions tuned to 170 bhp (127 kW), providing a top speed of 130 mph (209 km/h) and 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in 8.1 seconds.

Had AC not hooked up with Shelby I'm sure a much more refined AC ACE would have continued to evolve, the Ruddspeed was a formidable racer in its' own right at the time. Shelby came along and continued what AC had already started. As I said in post #103, Brits were the first to put V8's in the ACE, not Shelby.

The fact is, Shelby was a value-added re-seller for AC Bristol in the USA and nothing more. Give credit where credit is due, Shelby stuffed a larger V8 in a British roadster and called it a "Cobra", that's it. This whole thing reminds me of the history surrounding Tesla vs. Edison. Edison gets all the credit but it was done on Tesla's back using his inventions and patents.

Except for his misstatement about the engine size at the end of Rickd's post he is dead nuts right and all you are doing is speculating while giving us a dissertation on AC engine sizes. Your analogy of Edison and Tesla is also fallacious.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

. . . . . . . . Based upon Wikipedia, AC gets 95% of the credit. Seems like o'l Carol had very little to do with it. Who the hell writes this stuff ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra


.

Historians and fact checkers adept at weeding out the BS to get to the truth.

REAL_1, history is clearly not your strong suit. I will give you this, Shelby knew how to market his value-added AC ACE, on that we can agree.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Historians and fact checkers adept at weeding out the BS to get to the truth.

REAL_1, history is clearly not your strong suit. I will give you this, Shelby knew how to market his value-added AC ACE, on that we can agree.

Oh contrare. I'm pretty good at history and well read on Cobra history.

The British could've should've would've ...etc. Fact is they didn't.

Since you know Cobra history better than me please educate us where I'm wrong. I don't want speculation and could've and would've. Just facts .

[LMH]

To speculate what AC would have accomplished with a V8 Ace is just that, speculation. There's little doubt it would have been built since Ford and AC were working together before Shelby was involved. Shelby is the one who put the team together and won the races that's true but no one knows what AC would have accomplished w/o him.
If you're suggesting the British couldn't have won races without an American, you're clueless.
Larry

[twobjshelbys]

OK here we are again. There are two paths to completion:

1. Shelby took an AC Ace and made a race car out of it. Modified it with a coupe body (Daytona) and won the manufacturers cup. Car is out of sight for a while and then becomes the world's most popular replicar.

or

2. AC puts a V8 in their little roadster. They sell maybe a couple of thousand more. Car becomes just another two seat British sports car.

Now really, do you think that if #2 had happened, we would be where we are today?

Don't argue that a British team could have made a race car out of it. Of course they could, bright people exist everywhere, but there was no interest in doing so. AC didn't wake up one morning and think they could make a world class race platform out of the Ace. The car was viewed as a street roadster by all but CS.

[cycleguy55]

As has often been said, "it's not what you say, it's what you do that matters". So, while AC and the Brits could have, should have or would have, Shelby DID - that's what matters.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

As has often been said, "it's not what you say, it's what you do that matters". So, while AC and the Brits could have, should have or would have, Shelby DID - that's what matters.

The world is full of "dreamers",and much less "doers"...the ones that just won't take "can't be done" for an answer and are driven by that. CS was one of them.

I have met several same type over the years and must admit that I suffer from this affliction. My wife is well aware and uses it against me when she wants something done on the house!

[REAL 1]

Joe'Sgarage: Still waiting for my history lesson..

Btw: read the wikipedia article. While factually accurate in many respects it glosses over many points. While it gives top billing to the cars English name as it was used in England it fails to mention that AC was using the name "Cobra" under license from Shelby. Ouch.

Likely written by a Brit.

I found it comical that the article used replicas for it's photos and ostensibly mediocre ones at that. Sheesh.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

As has often been said, "it's not what you say, it's what you do that matters". So, while AC and the Brits could have, should have or would have, Shelby DID - that's what matters.

More of the uninformed shooting from the hip.
AC and the Brits DID do it, and did it longer than Shelby and Ford.

The AC Cobra was a financial failure that led Ford and Carroll Shelby to discontinue importing cars from England in 1967. AC Cars kept producing the coil-spring AC Roadster with narrow fenders, a small block Ford 289 and called the car the AC 289. It was built and sold in Europe until late 1969. AC also produced the AC 428 until 1973. The AC Frua was built on a stretched Cobra 427 MK III coil spring chassis using a very angular steel body designed and built by Pietro Frua. With the demise of the 428 and succeeding 3000ME, AC shut their doors in 1984 and sold the AC name to a Scottish company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

Factoid, the Shelby 427 was suppose to be the Enzo beater in '65 but not to be and Enzo handed Shelby his ass again at the 24 hours of Le Mans. That's about when Ford tooled up for the GT40 which did succeed where Shelby's bigger, badder Cobra had failed miserably.