Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

The AC Cobra was a financial failure that led Ford and Carroll Shelby to discontinue importing cars from England in 1967. AC Cars kept producing the coil-spring AC Roadster with narrow fenders, a small block Ford 289 and called the car the AC 289. It was built and sold in Europe until late 1969. AC also produced the AC 428 until 1973. The AC Frua was built on a stretched Cobra 427 MK III coil spring chassis using a very angular steel body designed and built by Pietro Frua. With the demise of the 428 and succeeding 3000ME, AC shut their doors in 1984 and sold the AC name to a Scottish company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

All well and good, but that was AFTER the Cobra was created by Carroll Shelby, and it was my understanding this thread was about Shelby's involvement in that creation, not subsequent events.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

All well and good, but that was AFTER the Cobra was created by Carroll Shelby, and it was my understanding this thread was about Shelby's involvement in that creation, not subsequent events.

Why don't you go back and read the original post along with the linked info.
"AFTER the Cobra was created by Caroll Shelby"? Try again, the Cobra was created by AC and Shelby with nearly all of the engineering done by AC -

AC: Chassis & Suspension
AC: Body
AC: Engine Bay
Shelby: Engine & Transmission

That is why AC gets most of the credit for the Cobra, they designed it. Also worth repeating, it was not Shelby's idea to put a V8 in the AC roadster, this had already been done by the Brits in '57. All Shelby did was take that idea and get funding to run a limited production of it in the states 5 years later.

Also note (as LMH ponts out), in '63 AC's Cobra finished 7th at Le Mans, Shelby American finished 65th.

[db replicas]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

AC: Chassis & Suspension
AC: Body
AC: Engine Bay
Shelby: Engine & Transmission

I thought Ford supplied the engine and transmission. ????
Just sayin' ;-)



Wasn't the GT40 built by Lola.... in England?
Wasn't the 427's chassis/suspension designed by Ford?

I am happy to be corrected as my information comes mostly from the Internet :-(

Shelby was a persuasive facilitator and marketing guy.
His grand plan was not a lot different from many others at the time. Except, he ended up on the top of the pile.
Endless promotion and hype..... its the American way ;-)

[Russ Dickey]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Factoid, the Shelby 427 was suppose to be the Enzo beater in '65 but not to be and Enzo handed Shelby his ass again at the 24 hours of Le Mans. That's about when Ford tooled up for the GT40 which did succeed where Shelby's bigger, badder Cobra had failed miserably.

Shelby wasn't focused on winning Le Mans in '65 as much as he was the overall manufacturer's championship, which he won. And the "Shelby 427" you reference - do you mean the 427 Cobra roadster or the Daytona Super Coupe? Because the latter was shelved before it ever got off the ground - not because of being any sort of failure but because in '65 Ford had put a large portion of the GT-40 program under Shelby. Some might even say that Shelby might have focused more on the GT-40 program, as Henry Ford II had basically told him his job was on the line.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Russ Dickey

Shelby wasn't focused on winning Le Mans in '65 as much as he was the overall manufacturer's championship, which he won. And the "Shelby 427" you reference - do you mean the 427 Cobra roadster or the Daytona Super Coupe? Because the latter was shelved before it ever got off the ground - not because of being any sort of failure but because in '65 Ford had put a large portion of the GT-40 program under Shelby. Some might even say that Shelby might have focused more on the GT-40 program, as Henry Ford II had basically told him his job was on the line.

All of the chronology of this can be found in AJ Baime's book "Go Like Hell: Ford, Ferrari, and Their Battle for Speed and Glory at Le Mans".

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

More of the uninformed shooting from the hip.
AC and the Brits DID do it, and did it longer than Shelby and Ford.

The AC Cobra was a financial failure that led Ford and Carroll Shelby to discontinue importing cars from England in 1967. AC Cars kept producing the coil-spring AC Roadster with narrow fenders, a small block Ford 289 and called the car the AC 289. It was built and sold in Europe until late 1969. AC also produced the AC 428 until 1973. The AC Frua was built on a stretched Cobra 427 MK III coil spring chassis using a very angular steel body designed and built by Pietro Frua. With the demise of the 428 and succeeding 3000ME, AC shut their doors in 1984 and sold the AC name to a Scottish company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

Factoid, the Shelby 427 was suppose to be the Enzo beater in '65 but not to be and Enzo handed Shelby his ass again at the 24 hours of Le Mans. That's about when Ford tooled up for the GT40 which did succeed where Shelby's bigger, badder Cobra had failed miserably.

Not so fast there Spanky..

You now changed the subject. You are now talking "sales" and marketing. Most here are generally familiar with AC continuing sales of various "Cobra" based cars. Yes, yes fascinating. So which one of those "AC" vehicles btw became household names? Also note none carry the name "Cobra". Please tell us why teacher.

Also, note AC efforts after 1968 were focused on sales and marketing and completely devoid of.....?....of...? Wait for it........? Wait for it.....

Correcto! Racing and competition.

Thanks for proving our point.

Please tell us what car and class Enzo had that finished in the top positions teacher..please! Was it homologated? Did what's his name have the 427 there in the same class?

Speaking of 1965..Remind me...who won the FIA Mfg Championship in '65.? What's that guys name again ?...damn it's on the tip of my tongue... No,no don't tell me ..I'll get it..

Now please return to the original subject and teach us...

[Joe's Garage]

LMH - True regarding the 427 Cobra. The original small block Cobras, the ones that "started it all", were all AC. AC had already made the mods for a SBF (namely the Ford Zephyr engine). They reworked the front end, put in a stronger rear end, added outboard brakes and moved the steering box to clear the V8. What AC exported to Shelby was a completed, trimmed and painted car without motor & trans for Shelby to put in.

REAL_1 - As for Shelby, no question he took AC's recipe of a V8 powered roadster and eventually made it work in the states, but the "I got there first" award goes to AC Cars with the 24 hours of Le Mans finish in '63. That proved the racing viability of the car by an AC Cars Ltd team, not Shelby.

The question the OP asked is why "AC gets 95% of the credit" for the Cobra? Above are the reasons why.

Sure, a diatribe into the racing history of Shelby after the AC Cars Le Mans performance, and 2 years later with a 2nd gen Shelby Cobra, may deflect some of the attention away from AC, but OT to the subject of this thread. From an historical standpoint, your comments are a lame diversion transparent to most who see the irrelevance to the OP's question. An analogy to your argument would be giving William Tell credit for the invention of the crossbow. WikipediA has it right on the AC Cobra, choke on it

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

LMH - True regarding the 427 Cobra. The original small block Cobras, the ones that "started it all", were all AC. AC had already made the mods for a SBF (namely the Ford Zephyr engine). They reworked the front end, put in a stronger rear end, added outboard brakes and moved the steering box to clear the V8. What AC exported to Shelby was a completed, trimmed and painted car without motor & trans for Shelby to put in.

REAL_1 - As for Shelby, no question he took AC's recipe of a V8 powered roadster and eventually made it work in the states, but the "I got there first" award goes to AC Cars with the 24 hours of Le Mans finish in '63. That proved the racing viability of the car by an AC Cars Ltd team, not Shelby.

The question the OP asked is why "AC gets 95% of the credit" for the Cobra? Above are the reasons why.

Sure, a diatribe into the racing history of Shelby after the AC Cars Le Mans performance, and 2 years later with a 2nd gen Shelby Cobra, may deflect some of the attention away from AC, but OT to the subject of this thread. From an historical standpoint, your comments are a lame diversion transparent to most who see the irrelevance to the OP's question. An analogy to your argument would be giving William Tell credit for the invention of the crossbow. WikipediA has it right on the AC Cobra, choke on it

Ah, a Brit. Finally you have run your flag up the mast. Don't get me wrong I love the Brits but they do have a tendency to rewrite history on this subject.

Yes, the Wiki article went through all the improvements AC made to the Ace before Shelby came along. No one disputes they made some improvements to the little Ace. But tell me. Did they have plans to make a world champion? Were they developing the car for that purpose? Did they race test it, compete with it? Did they improve it to the point it was a viable world champion in it's class?

This thread has do with the "Cobra" not the Ace. You have become confused. Let me help a little.

The Ace was not a Cobra prior to Shelby appearing. The basic unfinished car was there but it was not a "Cobra" yet. It had quite a ways to go in testing and development before it was "Cobra".

In fact engine alternatives had dried up for AC prior to Shelby appearing on the scene. Bristol supply evaporated. The sales of the Rudd Speed with the Zephyr 2.6 Ford V8 faltered. Sources from GM and Diamler Benz flopped. Things looked bleak for AC at that time circa 1959-1960 for AC did they not?

Then a Texan showed up with two 260 cu. in. engines in his pocket at AC. AC was more then happy to receive him. While Shelby was not an engineer he knew what made a race car work. Shelby American did much more than drop in the new little light weight 260 cu in in Dean Moon's shop. All of the testing that was conducted by SAI revealed where many improvements and strengthening was needed beyond the rear axles and inboard brakes. It was SAI that sent back the info and data to AC from testing for the manufacturing modifications and corrections needed. Not visa versa. Thats the key.

The Ace was not a Cobra and far from it. It provided the basic canvass from which the Cobra was created. It was SAI and Shelby that transformed it to the "Cobra". You seem to ignore this part of the facts and history.

It was Shelby who had the idea to bring the 260 cu in Ford to AC not the other way around. It was Shelby who wanted to build a world champion not the other way around. It was Shelby's racing efforts, sweat and grit efforts that develop and made the Cobra a world champion and a household name. Not AC.

Your analogy is very poor. William Tell did not invent the cross bow or make it world class weapon. I don't know who actually invented the crossbow but if we are drawing analogies Shelby is the guy who took the standard bow and made it the crossbow.

Cheers. ; )

[LMH]

Pretty hard to put the lightweight V8 into the Ace when it wasn't produced until 62. You can say could've should've would've all you want but when it didn't exist, it couldn't happen by anyone.
Larry

[LMH]

To keep history straight, AC did campaign a car in the 63 Le Mans 24hrs. It finished 7th overall, 3rd in class. It was not a SA entry.
Larry

[LMH]

Actually, the V8 was fit at AC Cars Ltd. AC engineers worked out the changes for fitment and I believe (not 100% sure though) that car was first test driven in England.
Also, Shelby was responsible for the concept of the V8 car but not it's design. Just an FYI for clarification.
As far as the 63 Le Mans race, I'm not 100% sure about the status of 2142 raced by Hugus/Jopp. It went DNF about half way through. Race results record it as Hugus Cobra but not Shelby American where as the AC Cobra raced was under AC Cars Ltd. I'm not exactly sure if SA wasn't quite ready as a team or exactly what was going on with the American entry, as far as SA was concerned. Never actually researched it that far.
Larry

[Joe's Garage]

Didn't mean to imply AC didn't fit check the engine, logically they would have to assure they got the engine bay right. Shelby just dropped in his engine and transmission once it got across the pond.

As for Shelby American taking 65th in the '63 Le Mans, that's how it's logged here along with the 7th place finish for AC Cars -
1963 24 Hours of Le Mans Results and Competitors

[LMH]

Interesting! What chassis was that?
Larry

Edit: I just noticed SA is listed in 65th as "DNA". That explains it.

[LMH]

Engines and transmissions were supplied by Ford.
The Cobra 427 chassis was designed by Ford engineers and AC engineers with input from SA.
Someone more the expert on GT40's better take that one. I think it was built by Ford in England based on a Lola prototype but I'm not sure of that.
Larry

[jetblue69]

Holy cow this was entertaining. Especially after I realized this wasn't a PMS self help thread. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of women on here.

No one gives a **** who created the car! It's sexy, it's fast and DAMN IT'S FAST!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by jetblue69

Holy cow this was entertaining. Especially after I realized this wasn't a PMS self help thread. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of women on here.

No one gives a **** who created the car! It's sexy, it's fast and DAMN IT'S FAST!

So why are you on this thread?

[db replicas]

Another way of looking at it...

Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car (Or maybe not in the case of Shelby, but that's another story).

So on that same reasoning you would naturally call it an AC would you not???

I think like other branded tuners you should use both names. AMG Mercedes etc.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by db replicas

Another way of looking at it...

Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car (Or maybe not in the case of Shelby, but that's another story).

So on that same reasoning you would naturally call it an AC would you not???

I think like other branded tuners you should use both names. AMG Mercedes etc.

You are so lost I don't I can help.

[db replicas]

Originally Posted by real 1

you are so lost i don't i can help.

oh yes :-)

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by db replicas

,,, Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car,,,

Exactly, that is what Petty's Garage is doing today with Dodge Challengers and Chargers, and they are still Challengers and Chargers when he's done with them.