Overheating Issues, Perplexed

[Jamo]

elmariachi...correct assumption re the radiator

Thing about a 160...while no differnce going down the road, it'll be cooler when you stop, and it's easier to keep something that's already cool than cooling down something that's hotter (or some such logic). As someone else said...just more of a margin to play with.

I have no additional shrouding than any other tin can (Kirkham)...which is basically none, and it's not really sealed all that well around the radiator.

If the pulley brings no joy...get the radiator swapped. If you need a rationale, compare the cost of the radiator to the cost of the motor and your own kharma being disrupted every time you're stopped in traffic and have to start watching the needle.

Fresno vs. Houston...close, but I can always drag in Bakersfield, which smells like Houston.

[RAO-3]

I'm not an expert by any means but have been reading and learning from this thread. Is it possible that there's some sort of blockage or air pocket in the radiator that may be reducing the flow area? I would think it would be easy enough to check with the IR thermometer.

Just a thought.

-Ray

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Thing about a 160...while no differnce going down the road, it'll be cooler when you stop

Okay, I'll definitely buy that. IIRC, when I installed the 160*, I didn't road test it nearly enough. I may need to try that again.

Originally Posted by Jamo

...compare the cost of the radiator to the cost of the motor and your own kharma being disrupted every time you're stopped in traffic and have to start watching the needle.

I am at the end of my build, so I am done trying to rationalize any of these expenses. Its all AMEX $insanity$ at this point. But as you say, I'll be damned if I am going to come 45 years to then live with a car where I have to be preoccupied with a temp needle.

Originally Posted by Jamo

Fresno vs. Houston...close, but I can always drag in Bakersfield, which smells like Houston.

I'll see your Bakersfield and bump you a Port Arthur.

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Is it possible that there's some sort of blockage or air pocket in the radiator that may be reducing the flow area? I would think it would be easy enough to check with the IR thermometer. Just a thought.
-Ray

It is very possible. I removed both hoses and held my hand over the lower exit while filling up the radiator will water. Then I removed my hand and it discharged within a couple seconds. I did this a few times and nothing came out. I also spot checked it with the IR gun and didn't see any abnormally hot spots versus the overall temps. As I mentioned, with the engine idling, the circular area where the fan is drawing is maybe 10* cooler than the rest of the radiator, but there are no other hot spots in the "no fan" zone that I could find. I also placed a lamp behind the radiator and turned out the lights in the garage and looked through the fins. I could not see any fin blockage or any signs of distortion of the tubes. The only other thing I can do to check for blockage is remove it and take it to a shop. And at this point, this radiator is sorta like that girlfriend you suspect probably needs to go: Once she's out, she ain't gettin' back in.

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

It is very possible. I removed both hoses and held my hand over the lower exit while filling up the radiator will water. Then I removed my hand and it discharged within a couple seconds. I did this a few times and nothing came out. I also spot checked it with the IR gun and didn't see any abnormally hot spots versus the overall temps. As I mentioned, with the engine idling, the circular area where the fan is drawing is maybe 10* cooler than the rest of the radiator, but there are no other hot spots in the "no fan" zone that I could find. I also placed a lamp behind the radiator and turned out the lights in the garage and looked through the fins. I could not see any fin blockage or any signs of distortion of the tubes. The only other thing I can do to check for blockage is remove it and take it to a shop. And at this point, this radiator is sorta like that girlfriend you suspect probably needs to go: Once she's out, she ain't gettin' back in.

Maybe try backflushing it to see if anything comes out?

Also did you check the radiator cap, or just try replacing it? Maybe it's not properly controlling the pressure in the system.

-Ray

[DocDirk]

El, the megaCFM fan is installed and I drove it for the first time yesterday that way, nothing unusual because it was a balmy 75deg. day. Temp hit and stuck at about 192F. Today we head out for a 1600 mile trek through Arizona so the system should be put to the test and we'll see if doubling the CFM (still shrouded) makes any real difference.


Good luck on your challenge too!

Regards,

Dirk

[vettestr]

We are in Phoenix so can relate to a hot summer day. Just a couple of tricks to add to some of the great ones already tried.

Adding an oil cooler does help even if oil is not overheating, add a deflector plate behind the oil cooler so airflow from the cooler goes down and not through the rad. In theory the cooler would seem to block a bit of airflow to the rad. but it helps. The air diverter plate keeps the load off the radiator.

Shroud or no shroud ? On a couple of cars where I questioned the shroud might be blocking hi way air I added shroud mud flaps. I cut a couple 5 inch round holes in the shroud and hung a square flap of rubber fastened only on the top. I thought air flow or pressure at hi way speed would push flapper open. If in stop n go traffic the flap would allow fan to pull flap closed.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by DocDirk

Today we head out for a 1600 mile trek through Arizona so the system should be put to the test and we'll see if doubling the CFM (still shrouded) makes any real difference. Dirk

Post your findings back here. I expect this thread might be of value to future overheaters like us.

Originally Posted by vettestr

Shroud or no shroud ? On a couple of cars where I questioned the shroud might be blocking hi way air I added shroud mud flaps.

I had a JEGS aluminum shroud we tried but it was too shallow, didn't have highway vents/flaps so it didn't work. Once I am done experimenting with pulleys for water flow and using the shop fan to increase airflow at idle, I will be going with a shrouded fan next and a radiator swap last.

I have three new Stant radiator caps I have tried in varying pressures, no effect on the overall issue. Currently I am running a 16 lb. cap.

[rustyBob]

Sounds like you already know what the problem is..........no heat transfer at idle from the radiator to the air............not all radiators are created equal...........a thicker(3 row)radiator with bigger tanks may just be the cure............

[elmariachi]

Well if I was 100% sure I would have just bought a new radiator. But by going through this one step at a time (and asking for advice from those with a lot more Cobra experience than me), I will know that whenever I finally get it solved, its truly solved, and not just covered up.

[DocDirk]

El, we've had a rough day through freeway accidents and highway construction project delays, taking about 5 1/2hr to travel only about 225 miles.

I have a 4 core deep aluminum radiator btw.

The new fan has made a difference. The engine heats up normally to 192 degrees full running temperature and stays put there no matter whether I'm stopped at idle for prolonged periods at a freeway construction zone (today was about 85 deg on the highway I think), or idling through stoplight areas or on the go at 80MPH (flow of traffic in these parts).

Never moved a degree up or down all day. With the prior 1900 CFM fan, once full running temp was reached (about 195 on the highway) it would tolerate stop and go traffic only for about ten minutes before the temp would be 210-215 range.

I still don't know what the limits of the system will show to be if we hit 100deg heat in Arizona but I'll keep you posted.

Off to dinner with my son who's LOVIN' it!

Dirk

[elmariachi]

Thought I'd better give an update here as ERA Chas was bustin' my balls on another thread for working on the white letters on my new Billboards (but that was last night) instead of solving this problem .

I received the smaller 5" pulley from David Gagnard yesterday afternoon(thank you very much.) With a bit of engineering this morning to resolve the proper backspacing I got it mounted. Fired it up as usual in the driveway and let it warm up. Its warm here, 88*F and 65% humidity, feels like 95F. It would normally get up to 180* operating temp in about 5 minutes (that's with the main puller fan already running from cold start.) I'd say it took a couple minutes longer today, maybe because of the smaller water pump pulley.

I already had my the old 2100 cfm fan (which we thought was a 2700 but wasn't) that had been replaced with the 3600 cfm Zirgo, wired up directly to the 1-wire alternator post and ready to go in the nose. After about 12 minutes the car hit 100C/212*F as usual. I stuck the second fan in the nose against the lower right driver's corner where the radiator exit is and switched it on. The temp almost instantly started dropping and within a minute it settled at 195F. I let it idle for 15 minutes and it never went back up. I switched off the pusher fan and it started climbing. Turned it on and it went right back to 195F.

Also worth noting is that before, I could only see maybe a 5-10 degree differential between the passenger upper corner where the coolant enters versus the driver's lower right where it exits. And a couple inches out from the fan center it would typically be just as hot, 200-210 degrees. With both fans running and engine now at 195F, the differential entry to exit corner is 25 degrees. The core temp right at the exit point is 170F. And the very center of the radiator is only 165F. That is MUCH more in line with what should be happening.

I then added the big honking industrial fan into the mix and the temps dropped another 5-7 degrees. At that point I was getting an 82-85C dash gauge reading and a 180F reading with the IR gun on the manifold where the temp sensor screws in. Icicles started to form so I shut it all down.

Not considering the pulley for a minute, it appears I need more fan or at least a correct shroud to make the fan I have more effective. And I could probably sleep better by going ahead and adding the Fluidyne Cobra 3-row radiator regardless of what else I do.

I have just been informed that I must now go buy some patio furniture to celebrate my discovery, so I am going to let it cool and them put my old water pump pulley back on and try again with the second fan so I can see what impact the smaller pulley had. In the meantime, talk amongst yourselves.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Thought I'd better give an update here as ERA Chas was bustin' my balls on another thread for working on the white letters on my new Billboards (but that was last night) instead of solving this problem .

Yeah but I helped with your sissy tire paint technique, didn't I?

After the Honey-do shopping trip I'm glad you're back on the he-man job of hot coolant. Besides, aren't you glad someone is paying attention??

[Jamo]

Progress...muy goodo!

[elmariachi]

So the pulley didn't make much difference, surprisingly. I reverted back to my original pulley and using both my Zirgo puller fan and my old 2100 cfm sitting in the nose as a pusher, she maintained 195-200* at idle, and it is HOT HOT HOT here at 6PM this evening, 93*F and 50% humidity.

So based on a number of recommendations this week from my buddies in West Texas who run high performance V-8s in their offroad rock crawling buggies, I am going with a Ford Taurus SHO fan/shroud combo like this:



Rated at 4500 cfm I can modify to fit my core perfectly and its got a 17" diameter fan and a nice 4" deep shroud. Should do the trick. Thoughts welcomed.

EDIT>>> This is with a medium Moroso restrictor installed. I am going to try the 160F t-stat Jamo recommended again and see how it behaves with the additional fan flow. Probably won't matter idling but might on the road.

[undy]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

So the pulley didn't make much difference, surprisingly. I reverted back to my original pulley and using both my Zirgo puller fan and my old 2100 cfm sitting in the nose as a pusher, she maintained 195-200* at idle, and it is HOT HOT HOT here at 6PM this evening, 93*F and 50% humidity.

So based on a number of recommendations this week from my buddies in West Texas who run high performance V-8s in their offroad rock crawling buggies, I am going with a Ford Taurus SHO fan/shroud combo like this:



Rated at 4500 cfm I can modify to fit my core perfectly and its got a 17" diameter fan and a nice 4" deep shroud. Should do the trick. Thoughts welcomed.

EDIT>>> This is with a medium Moroso restrictor installed. I am going to try the 160F t-stat Jamo recommended again and see how it behaves with the additional fan flow. Probably won't matter idling but might on the road.

That SHO fan/shroud combo looks like the real deal. From what's shown it appears to have good adapability potential. I'm always open to more CFM myself. What's the measurements on the shroud? What's it's total depth? If you have year and application that would help. I'm running a "modified" Flex-a-lite 16" shrouded Black Max. That Ford piece would kick it's butt in the air flow arena. BTW ... make sure your wire conductor size will handle the new fan load.

Dave

[PaulProe]

Jim
Have you considered going to a double pass radiator? When I got mine, PRC said it would make a major impact on cooling. Apparently the longer path the coolant makes dissipates much more heat?

You might give them a call and get their comments/opinion

Still a little confused why you're having the problem and the other Hurricane big block guys are getting along OK

Paul

[ERA Chas]

El,
Great progress and you're getting to the core of it now. (Pun intended).
Aren't those SHO fans hard to find now? Does Ford still carry them?
And thanks for sharing your hard work.

[Garage10]

El
I bought a 1997 taurus fan and its dimensions are 22" Wx 16" Tx 5" deep. DC Controls sells a whole package with the fan and a variable speed controller. But, he is very slow and kind of an a-hole as I ordered one and didn't notice there was a special tab for shipping to canada and therfore didn't pay correctly so he just held onto controller and didn't send it or let me know I had made a mistake. But, it looks like a good product. Hope I get mine soon. I hooked my fan up to battery on high speed it really moves a lot of air. I hear the Lincoln Mark8 fan is bigger and pulls even harder. something like 5500cfm if that would fit your application.
PaulProe
Check out stewart rad site. They don't recommend double pass. But, maybe they are the ones that are wrong ?
Hope this helps.
Brent

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Have you considered going to a double pass radiator? When I got mine, PRC said it would make a major impact on cooling. Apparently the longer path the coolant makes dissipates much more heat? Still a little confused why you're having the problem and the other Hurricane big block guys are getting along OKPaul

I guess I don't know enough about radiators to even know there was such as thing as double pass. I'll call Shawn at PRC tomorrow and visit with him; he wanted to know what I discovered on this anyway. I agree, I don't know why I am having this problem and other Hurricanes have not.

Originally Posted by undy

That SHO fan/shroud combo looks like the real deal. From what's shown it appears to have good adapability potential. I'm always open to more CFM myself. What's the measurements on the shroud?

Shroud is 22x17x5, and based on the pics, it looks like there's room for trimming. When it shows up I'll post pics. The one I bought was used but tested, price was $78 including wires, relays, and shipping.

Originally Posted by Garage10

I bought a 1997 taurus fan and its dimensions are 22" Wx 16" Tx 5" deep. I hear the Lincoln Mark8 fan is bigger and pulls even harder. something like 5500cfm if that would fit your application.

From what I can tell, there are three fans from 1991-1999, the high output Taurus SHO fan, the high output Lincoln fan and the standard V-6 Taurus/Sable fan. You can tell the two high outputs fans from the standard fan as the standard has one corner of the shroud cut at an angle. The other two have the same rectangular shroud, but the SHO fan has small swept blades like a SPAL fan and the Lincoln monster fan has large chopper blades. Do some searching on eBay and you can find Ford and Dorman numbers. I don't know if the aftermarket fans deliver the same cfm so I would be careful there (which is why I bought a used Ford instead.) Guys that are selling these know a lot about them so you can educate yourself pretty well by perusing the auctions. I am also a member of the Pirate 4x4 forum and there are dozens of threads about installing and using these fans there. You have to sign up to search but if you are thinking of doing this, its well worth it. And do a Yahoo search on "Taurus fan install" and you'll see how widely used this fan is.

[DocDirk]

El, I promised I'd give you an update on the response to the installation of the higher CFM fan. It's made a huge difference at speeds under 30-35mph I think. Well so far over 800 miles in four days through California and Arizona, from desert to 7000 feet altitude, from idling at freeway accident scenes in 85-90+ degree asphalt heat to 90MPH running between Barstow and Needles midday, and not a problem yet!

<<<That Barstow to Needles stretch was amazing - even though the speed limit was posted at 60MPH and often at 70MPH ("RADAR ENFORCED" no less), nobody seemed to care - 80 MPH was the "get over into the slow lane you $&^%@$#!!" speed in that stretch. With my setup the left hand flow of traffic was about 3100-3200RPM, ran at 194F the whole way, ram - air effect no doubt. NOW I know for sure I want an AOD someday.>>>

It seems the max CFM fan has made a difference at slow speeds, at idle, and in town stop and go for my setup. I can't imagine why it would help at high speeds though. I did seal the 1/4" wide full vertical spaces on each side between the fan shroud and the radiator body. Next step for me will be shrouding the front end opening to the radiator.

The fan is a SPAL High Output 16" puller - 45AMP draw - not even listed on their website, bought it from A1Electric after Googling SPAL fans.

Whereas previously almost any serious demands on the cooling system resulted in my pulling over when 225F approached, (usually in stop and go traffic) the engine now runs 190-194F 95% of the time. At speed it's naturally cooler on the straightaway at altitude, maybe 185-190, hotter with steady climbing from the desert floor midday into the mountains, reached 205F after about 30 mins of climbing and oil pressure dropped 2# before returning to normal once on the straightaway again.

There's some serious danger of my reducing my Temp and Pressure gauge scans to once a minute LOL...! Four more days and we'll be home, hopefully no news during that time.

Hope you discover the optimal solution for your overheating challenge El!

Regards,

Dirk