More questions to the puzzle
 

Hi Russ, I was going thru the paperwork that the guy had given me on the date of sale.. In it was a folder which has Plan A, B and C blueprints of the Cobra.
I also have templates to the Handbrake bracket, Front, Rear,and general specs of the Cobra. All Blueprints are listed under Arntz Cobra, But in the front suspension blueprint It shows a much different mount of the shock towers. nothing close to what I have.. I will be framing these since they are in execellent condition.. more questions to answer....
David

David, these are all part of the information packet that would have been sent to potential Arntz customers around 1980 (about the time Arntz went under). They're really nicely done and do show a front suspension that probably never made it to a production car. All the Arntz and Butler cars were originally set up for the MGB front suspension. Even my car, an Arntz Type 4 made a few years later, still has the MGB setup. You'll notice that on the "Plan A" drawing (also from 1980), the plates for mounting the MGB crossmember are shown on the frame.

Jason

Simple answer... I was there :) I guess I've never really come out and announced it on the forum but then again you are the first one to ask...

I worked for Ron (and Brett and Cindy) from 1990 through to the end in 1998 at the shop in Goleta, CA.

Jason

Nice to know.

I had the pleasure of meeting Ron in Goleta. He was a gracious host.

And I'm still amazed that he will take time to talk to you when you call. I can't imagine how many calls he gets.

BTW, did you get the two latches for the front of the windscreen. If so take a look at them and you will see that they are slightly different. The slightly smaller one without the casting crosshatch on the back was hand made by me, the main body part that is.

Arthur

Russ, have you had any more submissions?

Arthur

Mine is also a Type 4 and it has Koni shocks on the front. No lever type. Everything else is MGB.

David:

This post is a reply to your question about the frame number and location on my cobra. The number GR172 - is welded on - (located facing forward) - the crossmember at the rear of the transmission - or directly below the rear firewall. The same number is stenstil-painted on other frame parts under the car.

The original owner completed the build in the late 70s. I have a number of photos showing the car at different stages of construction, but no original paper work. I have seen other Arntz cars but they're not the same. The car has square tube frame, MGB front and JAG IRS, lucas electric, Dalton glass window, VW door latches, alum heat shields on the foot boxes, and a full alum clowing from the radiator to the engine.

I have some magazine articles on Arnst and Butler cars. My interior has the same lay-out and stiching as later Butler cars shown in the mid-80s. My sense is the original parts & body are mid-70s, but ??????

In any case I'm a happy guy.

Jerry

Hi guys, been gone for a couple of days.

Arthur, we now have 5 plus we need Jason's help with Jerry's car. I know where there are two more and they will be entered soon.

Jerry, glad you wrote. Sounds like your car is a Butler. Is there no number on the frame under the driver's side fenderwell and just aft of the bumper mount?
Pls check that area and let us know. If you would like to send photos, pls. send them to sotxbutler@yahoo.com. I am going to ask Jason to help. He knows so much more about these cars than I do. And, if we get stumped, we can always call Ron.

Guys, lets keep talking it up and see if we can't find some more of these cars.

Jerry -

I think that the welded "GR" on the frame may be a tell-tale sign that your frame was made by Arntz, although I thought the welded letters were typically on the 2" flatstock below the driver's seat. Perhaps Jason can confirm.

Rick.

Arthur - Ron has the latches and told me the whole story. I have not been down yet to pick up my parts and try to talk him out of those :) Thanks for the heads up on them.

Joyridin' - I sent you a PM about your Type 4. I have a special interest in seeing some pictures and learning more about it. Please drop me an e-mail when you get a chance. Thanks!

Jerry - Your car looks to be a Type 2 Arntz (mid 70s). This is based on the shape of the nose, the upholstery pattern and the front bumper mounts. I'd need to see pics of the rear body and suspension and the engine compartment to be more sure though.

Russ - I got your e-mail and will get back to you this weekend. I have some other random Butler car pics and info to send you for the registry. I just need to sort through them.

Rick - You are correct about the "G" or "GR" on the frames. I've most commonly seen it under the seat (also where Ron remembers seeing it) but I have also seen a car with it on a frame rail and now Jerry's on the crossmember. It was the initials of the company that built the frames at the time. I've long forgotten the name, but it begins with a "G" :) These frames came before the 60 that Ron Butler built for Arntz as a supplier. These Butler built frames only had a simple number 1-60 stamped in them according to Ron (again, front frame, just behind the bumper mount).

And that begs the question... Should we consider these 60 cars Arntz or Butler cars. Technically, they were provided to Arntz to be sold by him. But this was nearing the end for Arntz and some of the cars were sold so incomplete that the owners had to buy most of the remaining parts from Butler, who initially started making stuff just for this reason. Some of the frames were never paid for and stayed at Butler, possibly becoming the first Butler cars, their frames now stamped with BRI numbers.

David's car falls into this catagory. I called it out as a Butler because I saw all the little details of the Butler kit and parts and a frame number suspiciously close to a BRI number, possibly misread. However it could be one of these Arntz Type 3 cars that never had any parts until the owner bought them from Ron. We still need David to look at his frame and tell us what's there.

Jason

Thank you Jason for the information and thanks also to Russ for starting this thread which was the impetus for me to get a better history of my car.

Sounds like my car is one of the 60 in-betweeners. It was built circa 1981/82 by Dan Fodge in Sacramento. Fodge was a Formula 5000 driver and still does specialty fuel injection work - he has a shop in Rancho Cordova and I met with him about 2 weeks ago. Fodge guesses that he built about 15 Cobra around that time and got the kits from Butler. Fodge also told me that the rear diagonal link to the Jaguar IRS was his design and that Butler then started using Fodge's diagonal link design on his cars.

I first learned of the 60 in-betweeners when I spoke with Butler about 2 weeks ago. Ron first asked if my car had drip rails around the hood and trunk (which are on his cars and late Arntz - mine does). Butler also confirmed that he incorporated the Fodge-design diagonal links on his cars.

My frame does not have a "BRI" number stamped on the frame, but does have "26" stamped at the same location. I aksed Butler about my stamped number, but was not sure of the meaning. Based on Jason's post, perhaps I have #26 of the 60 in-betweeners?

Jason - if you are willing, I would like to get you to look over my car sometime and get your take on how much of it is Butler (or Arntz). My daughter is entering Cal Poly this fall and I'll let you know the next time I'm in the SLO area.

Thanks again to all for the valuable information,
Rick.

FYI - I uploaded a few pictures of my frame number to my photo gallery - any input will be be appreciated.

Rick.

Jason-Sorry a bit off topic but I'll be down in Santa Barbara in 2 weeks for Wheels & Waves (along with 30 other Cobras) Mine is the only Arntz. Hope you can stop by and check us out on the 16th and maybe ginve me your take on my car.

Thanks,

Mike

Russ,

I recently purchased BRI 1185040, 396, Jaguar IRS, automatic (not sure yet what tranny it has). This car was originally purchased by Phillip Kraft of Kraft Industries in Oceanside Ca in 1986. My understanding is that Mr. Kraft was quite the car collector. I have some of the original documentation - "Butler Built!" price list etc.

Thanks for the thread,
Bill

Congratulations on your adoption. It's nice to see a post on this thread. It seems to have gone dorment. Post some photos when you get a chance. But read how to, which is posted on this forum. Otherwise you will get frustrated with the uploading process. Or perhaps you already know how.

Regards and Good luck,

Arthur Mitchell

Bill,

Congratulations on your purchase of Butler #40. Nice to hear from you.

Send my as much information on your car as you can. I will list it in the registry. Contact info would be also be great.

As Arthur said, it it nice to find another one. We have only found a half dozen or so. Please be on the lookout for other Butlers. If you find one or know of someone, please urge them to post and tell us about the car.

Thanks again Bill and welcome to this madness.

Russ Richard

Hood and harness question
 

I posted a picture of the hood of my Butler, it has an odd cutout, sort of a tongue near the windshield, is this typical for a Butler? Also my driver's side has a 4 point harness, I'd like to add a harness to the passenger side but that side has no roll bar to attach it to. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Bill

I think you have the same thing as i got. These were basically left over Arntz cars that Butler built. From what I am told, mine was basically built by Arntz, but not completed. Butler finished the rest of the car some years later after Arntz disappeared.

I do not see your pictures.

Thanks,

Ron

Bill has posted two pictures in his Public Profile Album.

Hope this helps you find it.

Arthur

Wow..thanks! I never knew that was there. I was looking in the gallery.

That is definitely somebody's custom handiwork on the hood notch. It looks like they bonded a scoop to the hood and cut that portion out themselves. They did a nice job.

Some of the Type 4 Arntz had a notch similar to that, but they are very square looking in comparison. It was most likely done for the distributor on a SBC.

Good luck!