Engine Options and Clarification

[miniboy1962]

I've just been ringing around engineers and kit builders regarding the new regulations. From what i can tell there is basically a 3 year rule where the engine must be no more than 3 years old (and from an australian passenger car)when you purchase the chassis. And then you have three years to finish it. Can someone please confirm this.

What options do i have?
The Gen 3 and the BA Ford XR8 engine? I do like the sound of an XR8 engine.

Also, does the engine have to be less than 3 years old or does the vehicle that used that engine have the be less than 3 years old.
ie. Series II VT SS used the Gen3 engine which was back in 2000 or something like that. Can i use a 6 year old engine because they were used in cars within the 3 years or do i have to make sure it was manufactured within the 3 years?

[stephen low]

Miniboy

The 3 year build rule starts as of the date of your major purchase towards the project. This is usually the chassis/body and you have 3 years from that date in which to get your car a VIN number, which effectively means registration, and remain compliant to the ADR's in force as at the date of your major purchase.

Moving beyond that 3 year timeframe seriously puts you at risk of having to meet whatever subsequent ADR's, if any, that have been promulgated in the meantime. If anyone can comment on how lenient or not VicRoads are currently on this please chime in!

As I understood it, the engine of choice must too meet the ADR's to suit your build, definitely the BA but I am less sure of your Darkside options. But if current Gen3's are the same as that made earlier I cannot see why as the same emissions testing would have been achieved by GM.

The regulators are trying to get us to use engines meeting current emission specs. so it has to be the standard engine and setup from a car compliant to the ADR's you are building to.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[cameron02]

What Steve said.....except.....

I think that the emmissions regulations dont necessarily change every year, may only be every few years (I think 2003 was the last major one?) so the engine might be able to be more than 3 years old at time of completition so long as it complied with emmission standards at time of chasis purchase.

For example, my engine was from a 2002 AUII but just had it registered 2006

[Plums]

The last major change in emmissions regs was in January this year. The LS1 does not meet the new regs (EURO 4 I believe)...

[NASSTY]

As above, you would need a Euro3 compliant engine. So thats a Gen4 LS2 or BF Ford as your build start date would be post 1/1/06. If you fancy a Boss then there are some kit manufacturers that can help you. Eg DRB & RCM that I know of, could be more by now.

Also be aware that if your kit takes longer than three years then you face the possibility of subsequent changes to the ADR's, emmissions in particular. Euro4 is not too far away. Oz is playing catchup.

[miniboy1962]

If i buy a body/chassis today, can i still run a BA 260kW Boss engine?(assuming i finish it within 3 years)

So if i had bought the body/chassis last year sometime i could have been running an AU3 engine and the Gen3's.

What sort of details do they need to know about the chassis? If i built one from scratch - what date does it use and how does it get checked for that date? I suppose this is getting a VIN number? Is that basically getting the chassis tested and engineered and the date from that is the date to use for your engine?

[Plums]

I believe that the engine can be back dated 2 years. So if you buy the kit now, you can run 2004 and later engines. For the LS1, this means going back to VY2 engines.

[NASSTY]

miniboy1962,

your build start date is the date when you take delivery of your chassis and shell. An engineer will want to sight the invoice from the kit manufacturer which should show when delivery took place. Deposits for a kit are not taken as the start build date.
In Victoria, you are limited for engines by the fact that Euro3 started at 1/1/06. If you buy a kit then your engine will have to be a Euro3. However, just as Euro2 was introduced on 1/1/03 you may find that Vicroads gives a concession to ICV's (individually constructed vehicles) to allow for the fact that the emmission ADR keeps changing. My start build date was 2003. Vicroads gave a concession for ICVs started b4 1/1/05 to use pre Euro2 engines so long as the car was registered within 3 years. My Cobra must be registered this year 2006. Thus I'm able to use a 2002 AU Ford engine.To date, I have not heard Vicroads making a new concession for vehicles with a build date after 1/1/06 to use Euro2 engines. So at the moment you would have to use a BF Boss, not BA. To avoid being caught out you should buy your engine near the end of your build so you know what the rules are when you register your cobra. There is plenty else to do before you will need an engine.

[miniboy1962]

So as long as the engine i am using is compliant to the current ADR's i should be ok. The current is ADR79/01 or Euro 3. I have searched around and the next change wont be until 2008 sometime, when we go to Euro 4. So i should be able to use any Euro 3 compliant engine as long as i finish before Euro 4 comes out, give or take a little.

[NASSTY]

Give or take - yes
The way it works is that you have a three year grace period where you are exempt from any ADR changes.
Eg
Start in 2006 finish by 2009 So EUro 4 should be introduced by then but you will be able to use Euro3 engines from either 2006 or 2007.

Start in 2006 finish in 2010 - three years grace is counted back from 2010 to 2007 so the engine is still Euro3. So you could you an engine from either 2006 or 2007 and still be ok.

Start in 2006 finish in 2011. Three years grace is counted back from 2011. So 2008 is when the grace period starts. Euro 4 will be introduced in 2008 so you will need to use a Euro4 engine.

Start in 2006 finish in 2012. Three years grace is counted back from 2012. So 2009 is when the grace period starts. You could use a 2008 or 2009 Euro4 engine.

Do you see the pattern here? I can't think of a better way so say it. Perhaps a table would've been better.
It used to not be so problematic but as I said earlier, Oz is playing catchup to the rest of the world.

[miniboy1962]

I understand exactly what you are saying, its just that

When i spoke to an engineer, he seemed to think that i had 6 years grace.
Using the purchase date of the body/chassis you can go back 3 years and pick an engine from that 3 years. Then you have maximum 3 years to complete the project... which gives you 6...

I hate talking to engineers on the phone, they seem to head off on their own course sometimes.

[NASSTY]

If there were no changes to ADR emmission rules then yes your engineer is correct. Problem is the ADRs are changing every couple of years so unless there is a concession from vicroads then you will be limited to engines from the start date onwards.

For example in my case I can take advantage of a concession for start build dates prior to 1/1/05. My start date was 2003 but I'm using a motor from 2002. I could've used a motor back to 2000 as your engineer suggests as there were no emission changes to ADR's from 2000 to 2002.

Hope all this helps.

From my experience you need to ask specific questions to engineers or else they may rattle off generic info. They should know all this stuff as it's their job but I've come across an engineer who needed to think twice before answering.

[cameron02]

Miniboy, are you in Victoria?

Just noticed that some people commenting are from various states and I think the regulations vary from state to state so be carefull.

When I was in doubt I took my engineers advice and wrote to The General Manager of Vic Roads in VIC. Stating the purchase date of the kit and the engine I was using. He wrote back to me with the deadline which turned out to be 12 months more than I thought I had.

Dont rely on verbal advice from Vic Roads because if it goes to court I hear that most people deny every thing. Get it in writting for peace of mind.