Club Cobra - Dyno run

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- Australian Cobra Club (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/australian-cobra-club/)

- - Dyno run (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/australian-cobra-club/92172-dyno-run.html)

Ok Mr. Doubledip esquire. You invited the responses...this is mine:

It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect.

So there should be an expectation by the tuner that a cobra will eventually find it's way to a dyno in a locale handy to the owner.

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

Let me also say this .... I spend money with suppliers who come across to potential clients as having the clients interests at heart. If you reflect on your own purchasing decisions I'll bet they don't differ much from mine.

So why do some folks in business have an attitude to tell potential clients what they can or cant do with their own property?. Because they are all so bound up in their own perceived importance/hard earned knowledge/ip etc., that they forget the needs of the client.

Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

You might like to keep the last paragraph in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel1 (Post 889745)

I'm going to tell you this short and sweet (your terms). If I spend money with any supplier then what I buy becomes my property. I have paid for all the "hard earned knowledge/IP" involved, within the price. From that time forward if I wish to take my car to another tuner then it is my perogative to do what I wish with who I wish.

This is the exact reason I ask the customer if they want it locked or not. If they do not want it locked, I just leave out some of my "secret stuff". If they want it locked, I will put everything in it. Generally, people get the programs locked so that the Holden dealer can't flash over it, (wipe the tune back to standard)...
If somebody had bought the software themselves to tune their own Cobra, I would leave it unlocked and even teach them how to fine tune it... In fact, I offered this to Aussie Mike and I think he will eventually get the software one day!!!

Let me add as someone who has gone down the path of self tuning.

There is no real mystery to EFI. At the end of the day it's just about how much spark and fuel. Map the fuel to achieve your desired A/F ratio and map the ignition map for the timing. For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT. This is because a factory car will need to operate in any conditions; such as hot weather towing a boat etc etc.

Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought. After that, tuners usually just charge for dyno time if you want a custom tune.

So where's the problem?

I have to agree with Les on this one especially the bit about the perceived self importance that some tuners convey to motorists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889749)

And that is why I the customer am not happy.
I requested Vts off, and Maf gone, did not ask for any "secret stuff" but did advise requirement of being able to adjust later, this part of my request was ignored.

Please Bobby, dont think I am having a go at you personally, But if an end user buys a product they have every reason to expect full use of that product.

There appears to be some confusion in the use of the term "operating system" and some tuners claiming their tune is in fact a proprietary operating system.

Am I not correct in assuming that the various GM ECU's run an operating system developed by GM and deliberately coded to allow changes to "variables" and "tables" and therefore develop what can be called a custom tune?.

To me this is the same as this computer . I'd be pi$$ed off If I couldn't change the video settings, or serial port baud rate, or whatever I wanted after some techo-whizkid did an install. Indeed if I couldn't uninstall a software product when I found it un-satisfactory I'd be mighty pi$$ed .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889749)

If somebody had bought the software themselves to tune their own Cobra, I would leave it unlocked and even teach them how to fine tune it... In fact, I offered this to Aussie Mike and I think he will eventually get the software one day!!!

I've sung Bobby's praises many times on this forum and via word of mouth (although I think my singing voice is better apreciated in print).

Bobby knew I was a compulsive modifier/tinkerer from the start and locking the ECU was definitely brought up during our tune discussions. Bobby knew I would want to modify the thing later and knew I would probably want to have a play with the tuning myself one day so he left the ECU unlocked. He has always been forthcoming with useful tuning knowledge. I know when I do have a go myself he'll bee there to help.

Yes, one day I'll buy the tuning software and mess around with it myself but to date Bobby has done such a good job with his mailorder tune I haven't needed to.

Unfortunately LS1 tuning has become a bit of a comodity amongst the big shops. They figure a tune up is like bolting on another accessory. It's easy money since the tune from one car is going to be much like another. All the work and development was done on the first few cars and the rest is money for Jam. More power to them if you can make money. This aproach might be fine for the guy in the street with an SS Commodore but Cobras are a bit different.

Most Cobra owners are a bit more mechanically and technically savvy than the average commodore punter. Cars are often hand built by their owners with careful selection or fabrication of components. With that in mind you are best to hook up with a tuner that will work with you to get the best from you car. Someone like Bobby.

I think Daniel at Chipmaster has shown a keen interest in keeping the LS1 tune as a comodity rather than a service.

I also think the LS1.com.au forum has shown a keen interest in keeping its sponsors happy.

Cheers

Quote:

Originally Posted by NASSTY (Post 889750)

You are right, there's no real mystery to EFI tuning. For example, tuning a Wolf 3d or Motec ecu is fairly straight forward. Like you said, in a nutshell it's just fuel and spark.
Tuning the factory GM LS1 computer however, is a different story. Quote "For a factory EFI most of the work has alreay been done. A tuner is just tidying up the mapping as most factory cars run too rich at WOT." end quote. Most LS1 tunes these days tend to be MAFless. There are heaps of tables that need to be modified just to get it to run properly without the MAF. In fact, many tuners used to completely disable all Knock Retard just to get the engine to run with stable spark at WOT. Knock Retard is a valuable safety feature that should never be disabled (except perhaps on a race car).
Aside from normal MAFless tuning, try tuning a big head/cam car!!!

I completely disagree with this comment: "Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought."
Developing a tune can be done quickly, if you just copy a program that you've previously used. That's not tuning, that called copying!!!
Additionally, when I tune a PCM, the consumer is not paying for a software licence. I paid that years ago, the customer is just paying for my time and experience.

I believe that I have a right to keep my "secret stuff" to myself. I tell the customer that fact up front and then the choice is theirs. I will still provide an unlocked tune, it just won't be quite as fancy as my locked program.

Boxhead, a standard MAFless tune with VATS off and some different fan temps is nothing secret at all.....

I am liking the idea of buying the tuning software myself more and more.

But on Monday I start the engineering approval process and sadly (although I dont mind) I have to remove my body as the engineer wants to see a bare rolling chassis.
This will give me a chance to line the engine bay with aluminium paneling.

So with a car that is running correctly I will not spend the money on software until it is needed, ie after rego and after engine upgrades.

So after carrying out the garden work on Saturday (promises made to SWMBO prior to Nationals) I will start removing the body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889755)

Boxhead, a standard MAFless tune with VATS off and some different fan temps is nothing secret at all.....

And that is what I the purchaser asked for, with the ability to adjust it later (which is something I would never have been able to do because of his "Special Operating System")

Daniel would have known this but he chose to ignore it and not advise me of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel1 (Post 889745)

With your response i dont know where to start....

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..

"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."

keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.

And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889755)

Firstly, I'm not having a go at any tuner on this forum. My comments are based on the experience I have had dealing with a few other "expert" tuners (not on this forum) who were full of it. From the testamonials of other forum users, the tuners on this forum don't fall into this catagory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889755)

I completely disagree with this comment: "Once a tuner has developed a tune which I dare say won't take too much of their time to do, all that's left to do is pay for the license of the software which the consumer does when the product is bought."
Developing a tune can be done quickly, if you just copy a program that you've previously used. That's not tuning, that called copying!!!
Additionally, when I tune a PCM, the consumer is not paying for a software licence. I paid that years ago, the customer is just paying for my time and experience

If an engine is not opened, as in Boxhead's case, then surely the starting point (or ending point in Boxhead's mail order tune) is a generic tune, of which all the tables etc that need to be modified have already been done.

I would expect that most tunes, perhaps the term should be generic tunes, are sold to customers who haven't opened up their engines yet. If that assumption is correct then most tunes start off as a generic copy, mafless or not. If someone then wanted to have a custom tune on top of that, again unopened engine, then I would have thought that that would mainly involve the main fuel map to be trimmed up, which wouldn't take too long on a dyno.

Once the engine has been opened then I entirely agree with you. This will sort out the real tuners from the posers. That's when experience will count.

While you paid for your license years ago, I was trying to suggest that the price of a tune has the setup cost, license and R&D, built into the price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plums (Post 889755)

I believe that I have a right to keep my "secret stuff" to myself. I tell the customer that fact up front and then the choice is theirs. I will still provide an unlocked tune, it just won't be quite as fancy as my locked program.

You give your customer a choice, nothing wrong with that.

Bottom line is right here....

As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except BOXHEAD AND DAN . Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

So that is why what the Mods did on LS1 was BS....They have taken what Dan has said to be gospel and beyond reproach...what ever you do don't Voice an opinion unless it's a positive one, if you do and we don't like it we'll just suspend your account ..thin skinned and certainly uncalled for!!!

Oz

Quote:

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA (Post 889764)

So that is why what the Mods did on LS1 was BS....They have taken what Dan has said to be gospel and beyond reproach...what ever you do don't Voice an opinion unless it's a positive one, if you do and we don't like it we'll just suspend your account ..thin skinned and certainly uncalled for!!!

Oz

As i said i would have left his account open but it was probably cause where the whole thread was heading it was best left to be sorted behind the scenes between boxhead and dan not out in the open. But who cares thats not what all this is about .. it was about whether boxhead got what he asked for and whether he wasted his money... he asked for mail order he got mail order.. if he had to get another tuner to tune it then the only extra money out of all this he spent unnecessarily would be the difference off the 2nd tuners touch up tune and the 2nd tuners full tune from standard ECU... not the full cost of $800 or what ever figure flaunted around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubledip (Post 889766)

but it was probably cause where the whole thread was heading it was best left to be sorted behind the scenes between boxhead and dan not out in the open.

No prob's agree...:D

Glad I got a Ford with points and a carby !:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubledip (Post 889766)

he asked for mail order he got mail order..

My understanding is that he asked for mail order that could fine tuned locally to him. He got mail order that could not be modified by anyone but a guy 2000km away. Seems like a pretty simple case of not getting what you asked and paid for to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenrocca (Post 889771)

for a start that is what he says he asked for.. - i stated previously my opinion of other outcomes... but also Tenrocca you would know about OZtrack and his tunes.... although he offers remote tuning i bet if i got a VE tune (not mail order as TCM in gearbox ) from him and also requested that i might get someone else to tune it after him he most prob wont do as he locks his tunes so you cant read them... and so he should he has spent countless hours tuning these for the prefect settings and thats just it protecting his IP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubledip (Post 889762)

With your response i dont know where to start....The beginning works well.

"It takes a $hitload of money to build a cobra. So much so that I very much doubt that any builder will ever take his LS? to a back yard tuner. Our cars are not off the showroom holdens or HSV's that are familiar to tuners. "

this bit here about your cobras are not off the showroom floor etc.. making it sound like some sort of super duper special car ... Ohhh please, this comment is not worth the effort of reply.

do you forget we are talking about a tune in a HOLDEN LS1 ENGINE ?????... the engine couldnt care what car it is in..

Ok, then why was the tune not correct?. Why was it too rich?. If as you say the engine couldn't care what car it is in, together with Dan's claimed expertise, then he should have got it right, first time...it's that simple. That's why we pay a premium to suppliers who are supposed to know what they are doing.

"Further more, who is to say the mail order tune is correct given the variety of CAI's/fuel pressure/headers or whatever other variables are used in the build. It may be close, but not perfect"

in response to the above you must have had your eye's closed when you read mine - "If you planned on having it tuned further on down the track you really should have done more research and checked with possible tuners you were likely to be able to get the car to and ask them to put in a running tune with them having the knowledge of you taking the car to them for the final dyno tune - you would have been far happier."

Read Box's comments. Also refer to my comments about ownership and the ability to be able to change a tune at will.

keep in mind the last paragraph????? --- Keep in mind that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in any business until some-one buys something. You can have the best tunes in the world but if you are difficult to deal with, you will eventually run out of clients

i didnt see anywhere in Dan's responses him being difficult... Boxhead had a problem... rang Dan... Dan said send ECU to me and i will put back to standard so you can tune it with VCM. no difficulties.. no extra charge for that. I understand that right there and then it could not happen but he was still willing to do. It was even stated on the other forum that if the tuner had EFI Live that dan could have helped over the phone and got them going.
Yes, but did Dan offer to refund the $800.00 or whatever the original so called custom tune cost?. If not why not?. The mail order tune as supplied was not correct nor correctable.

As for Boxhead not getting what he wanted i think he did .. He ordered a mail order tune and recieved a mail order tune. As for the not knowing or requesting it to be locked and him wanting to be able to tune it... know one knows what was said at the time of call/transaction except boxhead and dan. Just as much as Boxhead said he told Dan it was going to be tuned Dan could feel the same way about saying He told Boxhead no one else can tune it unless i put the standard tune back in. - its just one of those things...

Exactly, neither you nor myself know what was said which is why (if you care to read my post carefully) I didn't refer to any conversation. I simply referred to the fact that if a consumer purchases a product, then it is the property of that consumer and that consumer has the right to make whatever modifications he wishes to his property. If the ECU was locked then the consumer does not have free and full access to his property.

With all of this forum *****ing which a fair few of you like to do and get up on you high horse and let rip .. all i am trying to say is you should never bad mouth a business on a public place like this.. there is no need unless someone has blindly ripped you off. (ie you payed dan money for him to send you a ecu/tune and you never physically recieved anything) . If you feel the need to warn others then do so just dont name names it is not needed. This sort of carry on hurts businesses and if the business suffers cause of a few words said by the keyboard warriors who may not at the time have understood or heard or even cared what the tuner was saying to them over the phone then that is unfair on them.

Look at what you have said....the fact something was received but that something was not correct and nor was it accessible to make it correct, means that to the client that something may as well not turned up in the first place which is exactly what has happened here. The engine which doesn't care what car it is in is currently running on a loaned PCM and is now tuned to a level which exceeds that which was supplied in the first place. Furthermore, the loaned PCM can be retuned by its owner at will.

and boxhead says i have dragged it up again after the LS1 forum ???? your the one who started this thread.. so i didnt drag anything up again.

As for you being banned from the LS1 forum.. maybe yes for continually questioning the forum sponsor about something , but may have been best dealt over the phone to him again once you had got home from the nationals.. I for one wouldnt have banned you... you were slowly digging yourself a hole over there with the carry on so it was fun to read.

How many times must a client converse with a supplier to get satisfaction?. I'm led to believe a conversation did take place but not to the satisfaction of the client. See all of my previous comments. Full ownership of the product did not transfer to the client and that client COULD NOT correct the situation without both delay and further assistance of the supplier.

And as Plums has just replied he understands where some one with a business is coming from and understands that certain tuning tweaks etc.. of the LSX ECU's is more than just the normal wolf and haltech tune.

I don't know Plums but have found his contributions to this forum to be valuable. He himself has admitted that he gives his clients the option and that is the way it should be. He clearly has a much better trading ethic than the other supplier.

once again flame away.. but take a deep breath first and think about what is the issue here... not ganging up and taking sides... and then just having a dig back at me..

I'm not flaming anyone and nor do I need take a deep breath first. I merely offered my interpretation as a CONSUMER after I saw comments by other SUPPLIERS .... mainly youself.

I have purchased a tune for my L76 and paid less than half the reported $800.00 cost of the tune in question.

What it boils down to is this .... The supplier has provided a product which was not correct and unable to be made correct. On top of this the client has paid a PREMIUM for this so called service.

For what it is worth, I can advise the supplier has already lost at least two tunes from Queensland and I'm not one of them as I have no need for his service.....frankly having read what I have I wouldn't deal with him anyways. So that makes a total of three "lost" potential clients. Given the passage of time that two from SeQld could easilly be five.

There is a cost to business called opportunity cost just as there is opportunity income. This supplier has turned an opportunity income to a direct loss.

Sad ... very sad

Ok, then why was the tune not correct?. Why was it too rich?. If as you say the engine couldn't care what car it is in, together with Dan's claimed expertise, then he should have got it right, first time...it's that simple. That's why we pay a premium to suppliers who are supposed to know what they are doing

if you used common sense you would know (and i am sure you do) that you couldnt ever send a spot on mail order tune. It would always have a bit of fat in it to run on the safe side, otherwise you would be up for holed pistons etc... ( but i guess that from mail order to full tune and a diff of 6rwkw in your book is an incorrect tune)

and i pointed out the engine doesnt care what car it is in because you seemed to make a point that cause it was in a mail order cobra that it would be different to mail order commodore cause the commodore came of the showroom floor where as the cobra didnt.

I have purchased a tune for my L76 and paid less than half the reported $800.00 cost of the tune in question - thats what a mail order should be... the price for this tune in this thread has ranged from 400 to 600 to 800.. it just keeps growing so that is why i only take the "what he said, she said" of what the customer asked for and was given with a grain of salt.

this far into this thread i would also like to point out that i am not a fan of Dan at chipmaster. I have not had any good or bad experiences, my gripe with this thread is more about the rubbishing of someones business/livelihood.. which is still going on in your post.

Fine be angry that it was locked. tell people to be aware and to look out for tuners that lock them or use proprietary software to read/write to them but dont bring their names into it and drag them through the mud. as you have just pointed out it has cost him possible income for basically someone feeling they didnt get what they paid for when they did and that was a mafless mail order tune with vats removed. (plus he was willing to put back to standard so it could be tuned else where)

Well I guess that just illustrates to the reading public exactly what your trading standards are as a supplier. :rolleyes:

That's fine. %/