Anyone seen the red Arntz at Kassabian Motors?

[750hp]

Hi, I'm thousands of miles away and it's hard to tell the real condition of a car by photos, so I'm keen to hear if anyone has dropped in to Kassabian over the last month or two and has seen the red SBC powered Arntz. I know that there's also a CSX4 and Kirkham there at the moment, so a 30 year old Chev powered Cobra might not have grabbed your attention...

If you have had a look at it, I'd love to hear from you about it's general condition.

One related question - it's registered as a special construction 2003. As the car is obviously older than that, does California DMV record any previous history or information on the car at the time they assign the "2003" title? I need to be able to verify the age of the car somehow if I am to be able to import it into Australia, and Kassabian don't have any documentation with the car.

[RON N BKFLD]

750hp,,,,,,,,I've seen the Arntz. It is a very nice car for the money. The FIA Kirkham is my car. I bought a Sunbeam Tiger from Kassabian and consigned my Kirkham, (my wife said something had to go) but I don't think it will sell.
I was Impressed with the Arntz, except the SBC.
The 2003 date was probably when it was first registered in California. DMV wouldn't be any help because of privacy issues. I will be at Kassabian in 2 weeks, Ill take a closer look........Ron

..............http://www.myhotcars.com/inventory/?dt_page=1

[Rick Parker]

This car (although the color was Dark Blue) with the same wheels looks like the one Paul Bennett had when his shop was in Hayward.

[ratsnst1]

I just looked at the car last week, the pic your looking at looks way better than in person, tons of spider cracks, lots of oil on the ground, the cockpit is as bad as it can get, but for 20.000 what can you expect, it just needs to be re painted, re paint frame, just clean it up.

[PANAVIA]

For the money it is a good starter cobra -- sharpen your skills....then go get something else. --

Steve

[decooney]

750hp,

Dejavu - I helped a friend over a decade ago buy an Arntz from Kassabian for about the same price, same SBC motor (originally a Traco 350 setup), same type title situation and questions too. This might be titled as a SPCNS Year 0000 first titled in 2003, so you may check that with a photocopy of the title to verify it. Many cars were done like this back then before SB100 came out, but they had to pass smog. We went through this with Kassabian as well on my buddies' car just for him to buy it. As I recall, they've had at least a handful of Arntz and PB cars come through there in the past ten+ years that I've seen. Its been an interesting adventure watching my friend getting to know his Arntz and seeing the additions and subtle changes to customize it how he wanted to. He can do custom things with this car as there are no rules since it started as a one-off custom to begin with. His car has become something really fun and different to work on and discuss over the years. A lot more work than going out and buying a painted roller, that's for sure, but then again if you like learning and customizing, this car might be the ticket.

If you are looking for something more accurate to a real Cobra, this is probably not your car - However, if you want something unique and different with a nice solid (STOUT) chassis, legroom, and some other interesting challenges to work around, its a neat car to start with or even keep once you've made some upgrades. As a buyer, I would try to find out if its a virgin Arntz or see if it is in fact one of the cars that PB set up in the past. After seeing my buddy go through his car and what upgrades were needed, I would not hesitate one bit to buy a solid Arntz car and just go through the drivetrain and suspension a bit, and just drive the pants off the car and have fun. Just ask anyone who has owned or driven one a few times. The first Cobra I drove was an Arntz and one of our members here ended up with it the week after I drove it. Maybe he'll read this post and comment, and he even autocrossed it a few times They can be a really fun and interesting car if set up right. Of all the small fixes and uprades, the one small snag was putting a good rollbar in it, having to cut away quite a bit of glass and fabbing up some fixtures in tight spaces to adhere it to the the side and frame crossbars. It can be done with patience, but its not a one-day job that's for sure. Something else worth noting, some of these cars can be tad heavy though, super heavy chassis and thick body glass too. Depending on what type/version this Arntz/Butler/PB car this is, I've seen a few weigh in at over 2,860lbs with s SBC; can be a smooth ride though with the right suspension setup. Looking at the photo one can see the nice thick wood rim signature Nardi steering wheel in the car too. Good luck.

[Jamo]

Craig

Duane pretty much nailed it. I owned a very early early Butler (essentially an Arntz) with a 351C/Tremec combo and campaigned it for several seasons in SCCA Solo/Pro Solo...won a few titles. The engine setback makes it a true front mid-engined car, and the handling is great. Took it through Death Valley and over high Sierra passes. Damn things are tough as nails...steel door beams provide a nice thud when you close the doors, and big beams under the dash and behind the cockpit make it solid. If you're ever going to be in a Cobra wreck, this would be the Cobra to be in.

Check and see if it has a tank or a fuel bladder...if the latter, make damn sure the bag's been replaced in this century. Butler's had the chassis number at the very front of the driver's side frame...don't know about Arntz.

[750hp]

Thanks for the replies! Duane and Jamo - interesting timing as I'd (unsuccessfully) tried to find more information to verify that the car's actual age, and I received an email from John @ Kassabian asking how my enquiries were going. Without making original documentation appear from thin air, I can't import the car. Forging registration documents will land me in prison or with a HEFTY fine over here, so that's not even a consideration.

Duane - you said "a nice solid (STOUT) chassis, legroom, and some other interesting challenges to work around".
Just to make sure, do you mean
It's a solid chassis with good legroom, but other interesting challenges... or
It's a solid chassis, but there are legroom (and other interesting) challenges...?

Sorry - I just want to make sure about the legroom, as a 6' and a 6'4" 240lb driver will be the two main people driving the car. I don't mind modifying pedals/seat/dash to make it more comfortable, but if it's really bad to start with I might be in a lot of trouble.

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about challenges (if other than your interesting point about the rollbar) if you have the time

Some excellent other general comments about Arntz/Butlers - thanks!
Jamo, I recall how well old #5 went in SCCA events, and how you regularly made much more expensive cars look a bit superfluous.

I've come to an agreement with the seller of another big block Arntz (with some more documentation) that if I gain Australian customs import approval for the car, it's a done deal. He's been good enough to hold it for the week or two until I have the approval. It has a Fuel Safe sticker on the cell, but I'll definitely verify the age of any bladder or foam as a first precaution.

Thanks again!

[decooney]

Hi Craig,

Since you live so far away, I'll make it another long reply if it helps. I'm about 2hrs away from the car. I have a day off next week, and if you get really serious about the car, send me a PM and I'll grab my buddy and go look at it for you as a fellow CC member.

As for your question above, I probably should have made that into two separate sentences and not to appear related. There is nothing wrong with the chassis, etc. The challenges my friend has come up with over the last decade have been in the pursuit of making it a better car. He has ended up replacing certain things that can wear out or just need replacing due to the need for improved function. Jamo mentioned one of them... Challenges such as fuel cell replacement if it has one of those small 10gal center mounted version L-shape aluminum fuel tanks or the bladder style tank low in the back if it has on of those. And, other things such as replacing gauges that break, latches on the hood or fixing where the hood latches lock in to the body, rebuilding the Jag rear end differential, and/or replacing rear shocks and springs, or completely replacing the entire front MGB front suspension with a modern setup some of the guys put in them with an entirely new cross member, or adding a rollbar, or rebuilding the brake/master cylinders that are old and tired. Or, some guys want different wheels and there are tire/wheel limitations on these version cars since you run a wide wheel on front and rear. Many came with 15" diameter and 14" rears and 12" fronts and ran 295/50-15 rear tires but 265/50-15 fronts and these sizes are becoming rare, so be prepared if you don't want the older 70s webbed wheels on there; which I kinda like since they were period correct for that car when it was built. I'm goofy, I'd keep those on there since they were a popular 70s wheel back then and sorta fit THIS particular car.

What I'm saying is this. Entry cost might be good, but be prepared to throw another 10k in the first 2-5 years easy just for overall the mechanicals if things are worn out and be prepared to spend a few years wrenching on it over time. Or, if you get lucky and someone has updated the car a bit over the past decade, OR, maybe the car was kept in good condition and does not have old/rotting wiring. You might be okay in some areas but I would be prepared to do at least refurb work here and there to bring the car up to date if you want something fun and solid to drive with working electrical and instrumentation, etc.. And, the worst option is buy it, run what ya brung and don't worry if its a rattletrap and just cross your fingers and hope the brakes work! - but I'm not recommending that either; I've seen some guys do this too. And, if you "run what ya brung" at least be prepared to carry a small toolbox in the trunk for at least the first year, and get a towing card from your local tow-insurance company till the car slowly gets sorted back out. Hahahahaha - its an old Cobra!

If it were me, I'd buy the car, and tear the whole thing (entire car) apart day-1 and just go through it and turn out a rare and interesting gem that is legendary to the custom Cobra builders world. I like them because they are unique and different and not cookie cutter, but maybe that's just me.

[razerwire]

Looks like the last car fixed by Paul Bennett. I think its a butler car, door beams, upholstery pattern behind seats, body. If it has hydraulic gas pedal, rare, then very likely its the car . If so its a solid car.

[750hp]

Originally Posted by decooney

just cross your fingers and hope the brakes work!

Duane - that sounds like you've driven my Mercury Comet!!!

Thanks again for your thoughts, and for the reminder that first and foremost it's an old car now. To be able to get import approval, the very best option is to buy a car that's at least 30 years old. Short of buying a CSX2... or CSX3... (which financially is far from being an option), I'm into a very small pool of potential vehicles; Arntz, Contemporary, Unique, ERA are I guess the main options in the late 70s to early 80s. With age can come a graceful patina, or a world or problems, or both. I'll definitely be having a good look over anything that arrives here before putting miles on it.

Regarding your kind offer to look at the car, I didn't make myself clear in my last post that I can't actually buy the Kassabian car because I can't find any documentation to verify when the car was first registered. Kassabian only have the 2003 title.

I have found a big block Arntz that has more documentation so I've submitted an approval request through Australian Customs. It's not in California, so I'm afraid I can't take you up on your offer...

The car I'm looking at now seems to have an odd tall shaped, but newer and bigger capacity fuel cell in it. It's not in the best position for centre of gravity, but beggars can't be choosers:



And maybe the builder of this car went with the forward roll bar brace due to the challenges you mentioned...?

[Jamo]

Craig...remember, I ain't small and I drove it for as long as the 10 gallon bladder (the car's, not mine) would take me. The footwells are long, but narrow, so shoe size (width) is the most important consideration for Arntz/Butlers. My 13EEEs did ok in Simpsons or well worn boat shoes. There is no room for a dead pedal. But it's comfortable enough.

I forgot you actually saw mine at the Fling.

Only potential problem I ever had was carrying 4 little 2 1/2 gallon plastic gas cans in the passenger footwell while I was still smoking when we did the Death Valley trip...that and me being an Armenian following a Turk into the desert. Historically, not the best move.

Wished i would've grabbed the Nardi out of it before it went back to Massachsettes.