Starter/Flywheel Damage - Help Need Advice

[Large Arbor]

So, continuing on my starter issues, today the new starter failed. Teeth were ground enough on it and the flywheel has some teeth chewed but not entirely broken. At this point, I think the old starter damaged the flywheel and the new starter was damaged by the flywheel. I know of no other way but to replace both to solve my problem.

So here is my plan to start:

1. Drain oil and radiator fluid
2. Disconnect header bolts
3. Disconnect transmission bolts
4. Disconnect bell housing from block
5. Removed pulleys, alternator (for space)
6. Disconnect fuel, oil and wires
7. Unbolt bolts from motor mounts
8. Pull engine

My question is, do I completely need to remove the transmission to pull the engine or when putting it back. I think I do to allow for the throwout bearing and clutch to be aligned when it goes back together.

Also, do I need to drain hydraulics for clutch?

I will also try to repair some of the oil leaks with the engine out. I was trying to avoid this, but alas it appears I have to pull the engine to get to the flywheel. That means changing exhaust gaskets and any others that need changed.

Appreciate any advice on doing this, as I am slightly out of my league here.

Phil

[patrickt]

You don't need to pull the engine. You do need to pull the transmission.

[Large Arbor]

Thanks Patrickt.

I am trying to figure out the cause. Is it possible that there is just enough play in frame / bolt holes that the starter is vibrating loose.I am not sure how to cure my issue unless it is exactly as I said, (i.e the old starter damaged the flywheel and the flywheel then damaged the new starter.

Pictures should be uploaded.

Phil

[Large Arbor]

Another of the new one. Now another old one...

[Rick Parker]

You may have the incorrect starter for your appplication. It looks like it should engage further into the flywheel, the nose piece for the starter may need to changed, to allow the gear to extend further into the flyfheel IE: more tooth engagement.

[Large Arbor]

Thanks Rick. The starter is the CVR recommended for Shelby Blocks by the ERA manual. Its a CVR brand.

Phil

[Large Arbor]

The CVR does only have two bolt holes, top and bottom and the belll housing has top bottom and one at the 9'O clock position. Its the one that came with the car, thus I replaced it with what came off of it. The old one had about 1,200 miles on it. I tried the other option of a powermaster and the bolt holes did not line up.

Phil

[ERA Chas]

DO NOT pull the motor. Put a scissor under the rear of the pan and pull the trans and bellhousing.
Interior out, you have full access.

[Bobcat]

As ERA Charles and Patrick said , you do NOT need to pull the motor on the ERA . The tranny does need to come out ..... I`ve done this before . Take the seats out and then the tunnel and you can pull the tranny out . I take mine out through the driver`s side door with an engine hoist . Support the rear of the engine and raise it slightly to get to the bell housing bolts , yes , it`s tight , but can be done . lower the rear of the engine some to get the clutch and flywheel off . If you get the car high enough , you`ll have no problem using a torque wrench under there .
For me , it`s a whole lot easier doing it this way .
As far as the CVR starter ,I`ve had no luck with them and also broken the pinion shaft ... went with a RobbMc starter and it fits perfectly ... and all three bolts line up instead of two like the CVR unit .

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Take the seats out and then the tunnel and you can pull the tranny out . I take mine out through the driver`s side door with an engine hoist . Support the rear of the engine and raise it slightly to get to the bell housing bolts , yes , it`s tight , but can be done . lower the rear of the engine some to get the clutch and flywheel off . .

Bob's right but unless you remove the steering wheel (easy), I find removing the pass door the easier way out and in.

[DanEC]

Before pulling the transmission out get a couple 3 - 4 inch bolts the same size/thread pitch as the transmission bolts and cut the heads off and round the ends to make dowels. You can then remove the upper transmission bolts and install the dowels and they will act as rails to guide the transmission out of the clutch to where you can remove it. They will protect the clutch disc hub from getting sprung and damaged from accidently putting the weight of the transmission on it while trying to wiggle it out and especially when trying to install it back.

Unless you are built like a gorrilla and can just lean over and swing that transmission out of the center of the car, you will probably want to borrow an engine hoist to help lift it out of the car using a piece of angle iron strapped to the top of it from which the lift can be chained to. Another approach would be to cut a piece of 3/8 inch plywood to cover the passenger side floor and entend under the transmission after the mount is pulled the rear raised up high enough. Then, you can drag it back and drop it on the plywood and pull it to the door and manhandle it out from there.

[Large Arbor]

Ok, thanks for all the advice and knowledge. After looking closely at the flywheel, no teeth are broken, some marred, but I think will still work. I am told its a 184 tooth flywheel and that the CVR may be the wrong starter for that flywheel. Danbury explained the differences. The CVR does not appear to engage fully into the flywheel. I will look at a Robb MC starter and see if that helps before I go the full boar route of pulling everything. Fingers crossed.

Phil

[Kramer]

Look at my post.. I'll pm u as we'll ...had very similar issues!

[Large Arbor]

Pat,

You recall the model number of the OEM replacement?

Phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

Pat,

You recall the model number of the OEM replacement?

Phil

Let me hunt around. But surely somebody on here knows the model number for that motor. I think it remained unchanged for pretty much 50 years.

[Jim Holden]

"Before pulling the transmission out get a couple 3 - 4 inch bolts the same size/thread pitch as the transmission bolts and cut the heads off and round the ends to make dowels. "

...and to help you get these dowels out, cut a slot in the end with a cutoff tool so that you can use a screwdriver to back them out after everything is aligned.

[patrickt]

OK, my 428 block, as beautiful as it is, is a service block that was cast in 1974. My starter motor has the Engineering Part Number D0TF-11001-A and Ford Part Number of C4TZ-11002-B. If my block had been five years younger, then it would use Engineering Part Number C8AF-11001-A and Ford Part Number C8AZ-11002-A. I do not know what the difference is. There might not even be any difference to those two starters -- I don't know. Your best bet is to post a thread on the 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum forum giving the casting date and asking some of the guys on there that have old parts catalogs to tell you the exact part number. FWIW, I have also been told that "all Ford FE starters were essentially the same." But there have also been a load of "flywheel/starter motor" problem threads over the years... so it might be the case that "all Ford FE starters look identical, but they're really not." If there was a really subtle difference between the FE starters, that would explain a lot of threads....

[Large Arbor]

So I did another look at the flywheel and it will have to be repaired. Some teeth are ground down just too far for my comfort. I do want to say thanks for all the sage advice you folks are giving me as I have much to learn. I likely will start Saturday pulling seats and everything else out taking painstaking pictures all the way to make sure it goes back together right. I will also make sure I have proper alignment when a new starter goes back in. Thanks again for all the help and any more you are willing to give.

Phil

[patrickt]

Well, FWIW, Delco/Remy Product Search | Delco Remy | Remy says those two starters are the same.... Well, at least they are today, hopefully they were back in 1970 as well.

[ERA Chas]

The OE starter is a 16 pound turd. Here's my IMI hi-torque-8 pounds and bulletproof. Robb's is beautiful but too much $$.
What you'll see;

Good time to send the flywheel out for a .005" or more cut. Mount the block plate, then the f'wheel. Bolt starter into it's nest. Hand test the mesh and shim if needed. This was perfect.
See the scissors under the pan? Use a wood block between.