Genesis or Survival Motorsports crate
 

I am replacing my ERA with a new one. I expect to order very soon and would get delivery near the end of 2010.

The car will certainly get an FE and most likely a side oiler. I am leaning towards a Genesis iron block, 468 or 482 cube, single carb, and about 500 hp. Hard street driving only and a lot of week end trips.

I have spoke to several suppliers and I really like Survival Motorsports. They are within driving distance for pickup (about 4.5 hours).

Genesis is local to me. That is always a plus if things go South.

Cost is similar between these two.

Give me the plus and minus of each of these guys for a crate engine. I know there are some other great engine builders out there, but I am really zeroing in on these.

John

This is a no brainer
 

Never, never, never, never deal with Genesis direct. They make a good product, however customer service is a foreign concept to them. I went through hell to get a brand new block that I bought direct from them replaced after machining revealed a rediculously obvious porosity in every cylinder in the block. It's a long complicated story and if you'd like to speak by all means PM me your phone number, but the bottom line is they are a horror to deal with on a problem if and when it happens. I have never dealt with Barry R., but from all reports he's a pleasure, the complete opposite of Genesis. He'll bend over backward to make things right. This is a no brainer.

Get Barry to build a Genesis iron motor for you. You do not seek tons of power and Barry will build a motor that will last forever.

What Jockey says has also been amplified by KC. Let Barry source the block from them and you won't be screwed around by them. Barry knows that block in and out.

I have been at both Engine Masters Challenges in my local area and watched Barry and Tim run and saw the insides of both motors and all the care and smart execution they put into a build. Since he's made 753HP on a smaller displacement engine than you want-I'm sure you'll be satisfied. Plus they're class guys.

By the way, guys - I apologize of I sound like sour grapes, but I hate to see another guy get raked over the coals.

Thanks guys. I am looking for the honest feedback. 767, you said what my gut was telling me. It is unfortunate you had issues, but I am glad I can benefit from your lesson.

Looks like I will source Barry to build my engine later this Summer.

John

Go to Barry R.
 

Grubby John I think you really need to talk this over with Barry about your build. If you are running a top end Aluminum headed motor, iron block is not the way to go. You have 2 different materials that have both different strengths and most important, expansion rates. Almost every car built since the mid 80's has tryed this combo in both cars and truck, IT DOESN'T LAST. Head gaskets are rubbed until either outside leaks or internal leaks. Coolant in a motor is verybad. The combo you are looking at ,482 has some great things and questionable things too.
If you are going with hard abuse, a 4.125 crank in a 4.280 bore would be a good abuse fit for the car. You didn't say what trans or rearend gear is going into this car. Also are you going with outboard brakes? This motor above will make 500+ HP and have a safe 6,700 rpm limit with all the oiling extras done to the block. You are looking at a solid roller camshaft or lifters?
If your heart is set on a 482 motor you are also looking at a 500hp without any problem BUT a lower rpm limit. This motor will also make about 575-590FT of torque at a lower RPM. You have to remember, TORQUE moves the car not HP. The other thing is the higher the rpm range you run, the shorter the life of the motor. I run a 482 with a max 6,200 rpm chip in my MSD. The thing is to match the trans ratio's and rearend gearing to the motor and camshaft. Bigger is not always better. If you want to go for long cruises, you are also looking to have the motor about 500 rpms inside it's torque band. This way the motor is not lugging at cruise speeds. Look at some of the tranny threads on this issue. I have a 6 speed richmond overdrive trans with 3.31 gears. I can cruise with out any problem. The waste is first gear. 3.25, I never use it to takeoff or even race with. I am changing to a 2.87 first gear and .87 od with a 3.07 setup. I have too much torque, (if that is possible) and blow the tires up in 2,3 gears. A little change in the motor is coming.
Last note John I think Barry builts some great motors. There is a different between a dyno motor for engine masters and street motor you are looking to get 20-50k miles out of. Barry does build his engine masters for street useage. The stroker kit I got from him was just as he said and was perfect to install. Talk to him about an aluminum block, it's the better way to go. My shelby 452 got raced for 7 years and was still running fine until I needed more power. 3 years with the 482 motor and it just getting better.I am still using the same CSX#58 block. I run a hydro roller camshaft in the motor now with a 587-607 lift.

Rick,
I appreciate the good advice. I did speak with Barry a few months back to get some ideas and a budgetary number. He suggested the 482 because it is free power. I was really leaning more towards a 454.

He also suggested E-brock heads, Blue Thunder intake and the 4.25 stroker because there is minimal cost difference. He did note that roller lifters were over kill for my app. I am not firm on iron or aluminum at this point. I want the best for my application.

My intention is to let the professional (Barry) guide me on engine choices. The must haves are side oiler, very streetable, minimal maintenance and long life.

This car will get driven. I put 5k a year on the ERA I just sold.

I plan to use a TKO600 with .64 od. I am leaning towards the ERA designed rear with 3.31-1. The 3.31 is a struggle, I am just not sure at this point.

John

John, I'll give you two small pieces of advice to mull over with Barry. I went with the original iron block with the Edelbrock aluminum heads and Blue Thunder intake too. But my bore is only .025 over (4.155) and my stroke is only 4.125 -- all of this gives me a little bit of additional strength while allowing for easier higher revving (with a solid flat tappet cam of course). There is a tremendous fun-factor in revving a big FE past six grand and, truthfully, once you have horsepower in the upper 400's it really doesn't matter that much any more unless you are a serious racer. Talk with Barry about the long-term benefits of reducing your stroke a bit. He might tell you the benefit of reduced piston speed at high revs is a bunch of bologna.:p The second piece of advice has to do with your rear end ratio. If you're going to go with the .64 fifth gear in the TKO you might want to seriously consider the 3.54 rear. I went with the 3.54 for a couple of reasons -- it made the speed relationship with the .64 gear "just right," it gave me the benefit of being able to go slow in first gear without bucking, and it allows for softer take-offs while being easier on the clutch. So, all of that is just something to think about -- none of it is going to "make or break" your build....

On another tack; Barry could build a 500HP 390 (of 400+ inches) for you if you're not wedded to the Genesis idea. Like the one he built for the 'Hot Rod' article. The Genesis and forged parts would be overkill for only 500HP and so would the additional expense.

All unless you're enamored with the 'Sideoiler' idea and must have one. Another option to discuss with him.

Grubby

I have a TKO-600 with the .64 5th. I have 26.3 OD tires. I have everything mapped out in a spread sheet. So all I had to do is change the rear ratio, to see what you will have. If your tire diameter is different, the speeds will change by the ratio of OD change.

3rd gear 3000 rpm = 55 mph
4th gear 2340 rpm = 55 mph
4th gear 2975 rpm = 70 mph
5th gear 1500 rpm = 55 mph
5th gear 1900 rpm = 70 mph

With a .82 5th gear
5th gear 1920 rpm = 55 mph
5th gear 2425 rpm = 70 mph

I don't like the .64 5th gear, as I feel the step down is too big. It you shift at 3000 rpm the engine speed in the next gear is listed below.

-------shift RPM - RPM after shift
1st ----- 3000
2nd ---- 3000 --- 1976
3rd ---- 3000 --- 2031
4th ---- 3000 --- 2344
5th -------------- 1920
The .82 the would give.
5th ------------- 2460

This is a good discussion.

I will spend a considerable amount of time driving at highway speeds and keeping rpms down is a big plus. The .64 5th seems almost mandatory. If I was doing more slow speed driving or hard core road racing then I would go with the .85. Lower rpms = much less noise and much happier wife, and the mileage will improve some.

For rear end ratio - I would have thought 3.54 would be almost too much for the massive torque a stroker will put out. What are most of the guys with big FEs running? My guess is the 3.54 would still be OK for highway driving, if I have the .64 5th gear.

Patrick,
Have you driven or rode in a Cobra similar to yours with less gear ratio than you have?

#178 has a 400hp small block with 3.54 rear end. It is not quite enough torque multiplication for the car. 3.73 or so would probably be better.

John

Barry just had a customer back out of his 482 build and has some brand new parts available including a Genesis block for $3,600. The Stage 3 KCR heads are sold.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943...diate+shipment

I have a 482, 3.42 final ratio, aluminum flywheel, hydro roller cam with specs of 112 LSA 245/252, .631/.650 and a TKO w/0.82 5th gear. I drove it today and at legal freeway speeds, my car purrs along in 4th gear. I never put it into 5th gear on today's drive.

If you search the forum, then I think you'll find that the 0.82 5th is the better choice, unless your speeds get WAY, WAY above the legal limits. Too much RPM drop at least for my engine build. If I ever do get chance to change the rear gears, I'll be moving to the 3.54's which someone said is now standard with the Kikrham. I love my cam specs and would likely leave that alone. If anything, maybe one notch higher.

I have 3:31 gears in the Jag rear, and a 482 FE being built. In most of our cars, even a "mild" build, they are cammed enough that the engines are unhappy at low revs. You actually want a few more revs at cruise so that you aren't luggung the engine and having it run poorly way down below it's power band. Remember, at an average cruise speed, you're only looking at about a 500 RPM difference between .64 and .82 overdrive. It's not as if the engine is zinging along at 2000 rpm more, That 500 RPM is just enough to get the engine up into it's comfort zone with reference to the lower end of the power band.

Yes, I have, but I'm not sure how I would compare the two. Remember that in RodKnock's neck of the woods he can not cruise much at speeds above the high 60s. Here in my state we're now moving our posted limits up to 70. Which means casual, light highway cruising is now 80+.;) Here, this post http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...1&postcount=11 has the 24k gold analysis on .64 versus .82 -- and I can't remember anybody posting that they wanted to move numerically down from a 3.54 to a 3.31 or thereabouts. You might want to post a thread soliciting replies to that very issue. But I will tell you that it is an absolute joy to cruise along in the 70s or 80s with your big FE making less noise than the wind.

Uh, when were you here last? Our Cobra breakfast was off 101, so driving speeds tend to be less because of additional traffic, but we're still talking light in the AM on a Saturday. Nonetheless, driving was "spirited." Legal is what you're allowed. ;)

I'm running a 3.25 with my KC Pond 482. It's cam is similar to Rodknock's and the car has a .64 OD equipped TKO600. I'm actually very pleased w/the rear and overdrive ratios. Once the engines up to temp I can cruise at 60+ in 5th. Acceleration requires a down-shift below 65 though. If I roadraced it I'd probably have opted for the 82.

In my car at 70 mph the wind is so loud, I would have to have the engine up to at least 3000 to hear it. At 55 mph, the wind will make my ears ring if I drive very long. I pretty much wear ear pluggs all the time, unless it is a short hop or in town.

I never drove a FE cobra. I would expect a big inch FE would have enough torque to not need a low gear ratio. I think I would still go with the .82 5th and then drop the rear gear ratio to get the desired rpm, if needed.

My small block doesn't get too load until above 2500 rpm and the cam does not like running below 2000. To be honest, if the engine had a milder cam, the .64 would be more usefull to me. So depending on your build you could be happy with the .64 gear. It sill sounds like you skipped a gear, when you shift into it. I think you need to look at the expected torque curve for your engine and make sure its going to run well for you. Measure twice and cut once.

Wind wings and sun visors make a pretty big difference with the wind effect. At 70MPH, the wind is really not bad at all and with the revs at around 2000RPM, you can actually chat with your passenger.

EDIT -- I was also told once that the dual roll bars, with the fat padding on them, also cuts down the wind effect. I don't know whether that's true or not though. I guess it could be -- some late model roadsters have little wind blocks that come up behind the seats, kind of like that.

Interesting. I assumed the wind was the same in all Cobra's. My wind wings and visors have little affect on the sound. The previous owner installed a single, two seat wide, roll bar that would meet todays requirements to get it on a track. The wind is definately hitting the back of my head. The wife is short and the sound does not bother her. I had assumed she was brain dead, but maybe the air is not hitting her.

Hey thanks. I got some things to look at now.

So not to high jack this thread - back to the regular programming.