Oil Pan Gasket Installation ... Revisited

[Bobcat]

Currently trying to get my oil pan to seal up with no leaks since my last attempt was a failure . Did some looking at the failure and several things stuck out . The leaks ( two ) were just behind the rear main bearing cap on each side just behind the main bearing cap bolt holes . Looking at the gasket , it had witness marks where it went over the rear main cap bolts , same with the drain back holes ..... the RTV had done a poor job of stopping this seepage .
Talked to Fel-Pro tech and , according to them , the gasket we use ( 1817 ) is intended to be used with either no or minimal RTV .... just enough to hold it in place while the pan is installed . RTV where the rear main cap parting line etc is ok .
FWIW ..... Fel-Pro part # OS 11701D is the same as Fel-Pro 1817 , the difference is the OS 1170D has oil pump and pickup gaskets ... and was available at local parts house for about $5 less than the 1817 .
New plan ... cut out the back of the gasket to open up the drain back holes , cut out where the rear ,main cap bolts are and install with the gray RTV where the timing cover meets the block and also on the parting lines in the rear ... and just a very thin , even covering on the gasket .
Their tech guy specifically said don`t use a 1/8" bead of RTV on both sides of the gasket .... it changes how the gasket seals when you torque it down .
Any thoughts on this approach ? Maybe Brent/Barry etc will chime in .
Techs don`t build engines , you guys do .

[lippy]

I just completed this job using 1817s with an Aviaid pan (with windage tray). Brent gave me some good tips.

Here's what I did:
- Remove and clean pan and windage tray. Clean carefully and make sure bolt holes aren't distorted. If they are, either straighten the flanges with a body hammer or replace the pan
- Brent installed 4 studs in my block, which made the job much easier
- Use Permatex red gasket glue per instructions to glue the lower gasket to the bottom of the windage tray, and also to glue the top gasket to the block.
- Apply a very thin layer of sealant to the bottom of each gasket. You can use The Right Stuff, which apparently seals well but is a b*tch to get off if you ever need to, Black RTV, or Motorsport TA-31 (gray) as many people prefer. I didn't want to use The Right Stuff and had heard that the TA-31 is the same material, so I tested them side-by-side with some spare gasket material on my metal workbench. As far as I could tell, they are not the same, and the TA-31 comes off much easier, so that is what I used
- Make sure you cut around the bolt holes and main seal oil return passage on the top gasket, at the rear of the pan. If you don't, you will get a main seal leak.
- Assemble all layers finger tight. The studs really help get everything together quickly, and you will need the time as the sealer skins fairly quickly. Then tighten gradually in a side-to-side pattern. Aviaid recommends a torque of 60-80 in-lbs, but you can't get a torque wrench on the bolts anyway. I just tightened each bolt about a quarter of a turn, let them settle/compress, and then snugged them again an hour or two later. It is very important not to over torque the pan as too much torque will distort the flange and cause leaks. You don't need much torque. Brent also used serrated nuts on the studs and lock washers on the bolts, which help keep everything tight.
- Wait a day or two to add oil to be safe so the sealer can set up.

I only have about a hundred miles on it but so far so good - not a single drip.

[Bobcat]

Lippy ..... thanks . Looks like I`ve done everything you have except the cutouts and the TA - 31 sealant . Block has studs already in it and I`ve prefit the Moroso pan and it goes on with all studs in the block with no problems .
Looked at the manuals for my 427 Galaxie last night and they give a torque sequence ( X pattern starting in the middle and alternating sides ) and a torque range of 7 to 9 ft lbs ..... of course this is for cork gaskets .

Heading to the Ford dealer for the sealant now . Somewhere I remember Barry saying he used a credit card to spread a very thin layer of sealant on the gaskets .... which is what you did .

Bob

[lippy]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Lippy ..... thanks . Looks like I`ve done everything you have except the cutouts and the TA - 31 sealant . Block has studs already in it and I`ve prefit the Moroso pan and it goes on with all studs in the block with no problems .
Looked at the manuals for my 427 Galaxie last night and they give a torque sequence ( X pattern starting in the middle and alternating sides ) and a torque range of 7 to 9 ft lbs ..... of course this is for cork gaskets .

Heading to the Ford dealer for the sealant now . Somewhere I remember Barry saying he used a credit card to spread a very thin layer of sealant on the gaskets .... which is what you did .

Bob

60-80 in-lb = 5-7 ft-lb (roughly), so we're close on torque

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Maybe Brent/Barry etc will chime in .
Techs don`t build engines , you guys do .

I appreciate that. A lot of people don't understand that the people they talk to over the phone have more than likely never turned a bolt on the engine you're working on, and maybe haven't ever turned a bolt, period. That goes for carb and cam tech lines as well.

I have made requests to Felpro for gasket changes, particularly on their MLS SVO SBF head gaskets. They don't reach all the way up to the china wall and so you get a gap between the block and the head. If the sealant doesn't happen to get down into the little crevice, it will leak. So far, I haven't seen them change it, probably because they're not the ones who have to warranty the engines. Punks.

For FE stuff, I glue the gasket to the block first and use the Permatex Gasket sealant. It goes on like contact cement....put it on both pieces, let it tack up, then stick them together. If the engine is in the car, put a stud in each corner to help line things up for you.

I use an X-acto knife and cut around the bolts/studs and cut around the rear main seal drain. If the drain is blocked, it could back up oil into the rear main seal. If the bolts/stud nuts hold the gasket up, there's not much that will help you there. The Pond block is really good about sinking the rear cap stud nuts down far, but I still cut around them just in case.

After the gasket is stuck to the block, I use a very light layer of sealant, and maybe add an extra bit on the seal between the rear cap and the block, and where the timing cover meets the block. I just spread it on with my finger. Check your timing cover install to see if it's flush with the block or if it hangs down. I use a tool to center the timing cover onto the block by the seal counterbore in the front, and you'd be surprised at where the cover sits when it's perfectly in line with everything.

If you won't have the pan off for awhile (or never), I'll use the Right Stuff. It will come off, but you have to be very ginger with the pan as you remove it. It will not ever leak if you use it though.

If you're racing and pull the pan on/off frequently, you can glue the gasket to the block then use a layer of lithium grease between the gasket and pan so that it won't stick.

Lock washers also help keep things where they're supposed to go.

As for torque values, they're pretty much useless with this fastener type and since oil pans are hardly ever perfectly flat, you don't know if you're done pulling or if the pan is just bent. I just tighten by hand with a 1/4" drive ratchet and watch things closely.

[Bobcat]

Brent ... thanks for the tips . Yes , you`re correct about techs . Some are very good , but most just look at their screens .
I`m not running a windage tray so I plan to glue the gasket to the block first with the Permatex Super High Tack ... I assume you apply it with a brush or does it matter ? .... and then a very thin layer ( almost like a coat of paint ) of the gray sealer and bolt the pan up . You did confuse me a little when you said that after the gasket is glued to the block you use an extra bit of sealer between the the rear cap and the block . If the gasket is already glued to the block , how do you do that ?
I have a Ponds block and I checked the rear mainbolts and they are well below the rails .
Thanks

[blykins]

Sorry, brain was out of gear.

Little sealant on the seams before the glue is brushed on. The tacky sealant won't fill voids or steps very well.

[ERA Chas]

I went through this three different times Bob and have some differences from Brent's excellent system that have worked for me. Be prepared for work though.
First off-every oil pan should have a billet block rail. Then there'd be even clamping. I think only Aviads do. All the steel pans have those lousy flutes.
To that end I trued my Canton by hammer into a roughly flat flange. Then filled the flutes with JB Weld. Then sanded the flange flat moving the pan on sheets of Emory paper.
The gasket-I like Milodon's but whatever you use, pay special attention to the holes in the gasket. Match them to the pan hole spacing then use a punch set to enlarge them (round) so there is no tension on the gasket when you drop bolts or studs in. I actually made a plywood jig so the gasket would lay dead flat with no interference from the bolts. Pay attention around the main cap drain as Brent says. I make a gasket 'sandwich' because of my windage tray.
Unlike Brent, I don't glue to the block-I glue to the pan, then the tray to that gasket, then the last gasket to the tray. I use the pan inverted an on the jig (which is flat on the bench) and weight it as the TA-31 dries.
It is tricky getting the pan+tray around the oil pump, but there's no RTV to smear and can be done. I do this so that it's easier getting the pan off the block and I'd rather clean the pan rail on the bench, than the block rail upside-down under the car. I use a smear of TA-31 on the block so it can be sliced with a narrow putty knife for removal.
Finally, thanks to Jim Reiss, we had 'load spreaders' made from 3/8" steel and run front to back on both sides. They were water jet cut and the hole spacing is perfect to the gasket. When the pan goes on, using a bolt at each corner, I put one sides spreader in place and using Mr Gasket serrated head longer bolts, work them up. Then the other side the same way. Torque with short box wrench until snug.
I have extensive pictures of all of this and will post only if you're considering doing all this.

[blykins]

The only problem with Aviaid pans is that they're made by Aviaid.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by blykins

The only problem with Aviaid pans is that they're made by Aviaid.

Are Armando's better quality?

[blykins]

Never used one of his.

[Bobcat]

Charles , thanks for the tips . I hadn`t thought about the holes in the gaskets vs the stud spacing . My problem now is time as I leave next Thursday for a 3 day track event at VIR . Seems everything that could happen has happened from no one having Avon tires in stock until the first of June to the track pads not arriving until this Thursday .... and I still have to prep the rotors and bed the new pads . Did I mention that the oil pan gaskets are out of stock everywhere ? Also using the TA-31 Ford sealant this time .
Flushing the brake system last night and the gasket on the pressure bleeder cap that goes on the MC was bad and over 1/2 liter of brake fluid on the floor .
Just found a suspect lower radiator hose that has to be changed and no one has one in stock until , hopefully , tomorrow .
Still have to change the suspension settings over to track settings and do an alignment front and rear .
Point to all this rambling is that when I get the time , if the weepage is still there , I`m very interested in seeing what you did to your pan as mine is a Canton also .
Took my Aviaid pan and used it downrange for practice with my M1 Garand as it would never stop leaking . BTW , it had the flutes on the mounting flange as does the Canton.
Got my fingers and toes crossed that I can get the Canton to not leak this time around .

[ERA Chas]

And so it goes with Cobras, their parts and suppliers...
Best luck with the issues and getting your set-up right.
Ping me if / when you wanna see what crazy stuff I did.
Brent's a cheater---he works on pans with the motor upside-down... No wonder his never leak.

[blykins]

Never say never....