Just because an engine has not worn out does not mean that the Mobil 1 in question had the same amount of ZDDP as it did earlier. Keith is correct, Mobil 1 15 - 50 DOES NOT have as much ZDDP as it once did. That is not anyones opinion, that is a fact that Mobil 1 has stated many times.

Most engines can still run fine with it though for hundreds of thousands of miles. That point does not speak to the levels of ZDDP for the average engine.


.

KC Racing Engine instructions
 

Keith, Thanks for taking the time to tell us about real world experience and results with the new oil formulations which are light on ZDDP. Your advice is well taken (and wear observations interesting). Please don't forget to update the information in the excellent "Pedigree Packet" that comes with each of your engines. I recently took delivery of a SBF from you for my Cobra, and I believe the information you provided basically says to break it in on 10W-30 or 10W-40 mineral before considering a switch to synthetic, and nothing more. It makes me a little nervous to think that following that advice might not cover me as the oil I used was not Joe Gibbs (I used Rotella mineral spec'd for diesels to have enough break in additives). Admittedly the engine I bought will not see much, if any, track time, but I'm looking forward to checking those HP and torque curves that you provided with some real world driving once the weather clears.

Enjoyed the tour of your facility. Lots of interesting work going on there.

I am not disputing that. I do dispute that their newer formulation has less than than enough zddp to become a hazard to older engines. It currently has 1300ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorus. Still plenty to be protective to flat tappet cam & lifters. I do add Cam Shield when using Mobil 1 0w-40 in the winter.

btw, me having a difference of opinion with Keith does not mean I wouldn't want him to build an engine for me someday. Still dreaming of a Cobra down the line.

Z.

Which motor oil are you using?
 

Experience counts but it all depends on your application road engine or road race engine, I think most of us realise that modern motor oils are lower on Zinc, and oil companies have listened to the performance car sector and the camshaft break in and wear problems and have designed oils to suit.

There seems to be a great emphasis on lighter weight oils rather than what the oil package is, why would you use a modern catalytic compliant oil, which is lower in zinc when you can buy a number of oils recommended for flat tappet old style performance engines from oil companies.

Just for interest I read through the GM LS7 Crate engine start up instructions on the net, and they dont recommend synthetic oils like Mobil 1 until you have done some break in work and after one preferrably two oil changes on mineral oil.

If the oil you use has the "Starburst" symbol on the container it does not have higher levels of ZDDP. Most 5W-30, 10W-30 and 5W-20 oils have the starburst symbol and therefore have ZDDP level of about 800 PPM (to protect the CC). Redline oils (and maybe others) do not have the starburst symbol because of their higher levels of ZDDP (1,200 PPM).

If you want to know the ZDDP level in the oil you're using just give the company a call.

Bob

I've Posted This Letter Before...
 

I know I've posted this before. It's a letter from the VP of Marketing for Brad Penn. Somehow it made it across my desk early last year I think. BP is what I use, and I have a pretty "old fashioned" FE build.

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...radpenn001.jpg

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...radpenn002.jpg

We learn something new every day. Now I'll pay more attention to what I put in my engines, especially the vintage ones. I will swear by Mobil One for my BMW M3, which has surpassed 200,000 miles with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

zinc & phosphorous levels for all Mobil 1 oil products:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf



I was not referring to an average engine, but a vintage 289 flat tappet mechanical cam engine. The kind most vulnerable to an insufficient amount of zddp. Therefore the lack of measurable wear is an indication that sufficient lubrication is present. Not fact, or proof, but definitely an indication.

Z

After seeing the 1300 PPM of Zinc in the M1 15w/50 I think I'll keep it in the crank case for a bit longer. I hate to waste 10 quarts of oil anyway... I still ordered 10 quarts of the Joe Gibbs 15/50 HR oil for the next oil change though. After that, due to Joe Gibb's exorbitant pricing, I'll return to Mobil 1's 15/50.

If you are really interested in finding out what is going on inside your engine and how your oil is doing it's job...

Blackstone-lab.com

Remember the additives are consumed overtime. If you change your oil every 1000 miles than I doubt you would ever have a problem on any roller engine. I like the 15w50 but the mobil high mileage 10w40 also has a little more zinc/phosphours just not as much as the 15w50. Once again for $12.00 you can buy red line break in additive and it will last 4 9 quart oil changes and you can get the zinc and phosphourus to 1400 ppm, anything above that is corrosive.

don't know the particulars for other brands, but the Cam Shield product has provided a formula so you add the exact amount needed to arrive at the target zddp level.

http://www.cam-shield.com/

Z.

good personal experience from keithc8!

more opinions
 

very interesting reading

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

We will be including some information in the future with our engines about the oil. When you stand behind an engine but are not there taking care of it or know how it is getting treated you need all the help you can get. Most people will buy the cheapest oil they can in most cases thinking they are all the same.
I have talked with people about some of this till blue in the face and I can not make them buy any certain kind of oil. You are correct about some of the oils having around 1200 PPm or so of Zinc but you also need to know how much detergent they have and the type. I figure we will make a repring of some of the Jo Gibbs numbers and include with our engine packages. If a person buys an engine from us they should consider what oil we tell them to run.
Some of these other oils will do the job in a lot of the cases but if you can get somehting that is better for your engine why not run it. Like I said before the lower the spring pressure, lower the rpms the easier you are on your engine the less important the oil becomes.
I do not think the Jo Gibbs stuff is much higher than any other high performance oil if you buy it from us or some WD dealer. Like mentioned earlier have your oil company send all of the information on their oils so you can check them out.

Good luck, Keith

Visit Bobistheoilguy.com all your oil questions can be answered there, it is an oil forum for enthusiast. Bob is the oil guy.

Valvoline RACING 20-50w along with ZDDP additive. Engine builder recomendation

I'm glad you're going to do recommendations for the oil now.

FWIW, a couple years ago I called you guys (couldn't get to you personally) about oil recommendations for the Pond 482 you built me. All I got was .... any good quality oil. I actually pushed the issue for a more finite answer, to no avail. It's hard to knock the customer for improper oil use under those conditions. Live and learn, I guess.

Yep, I bet it was the oil that made your wheels break loose last year.;)

maybe kc could sponsor a group buy on some joe gibbs oil, nobody has done a group buy for quite some time.