S/O or ?

hkmp5 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-28-2011, 11:15 PM

Is this C6AE-B a S/O or C/O or 428?
Fordification shows .....
C6AE-B '65-'66 427 c.i.d. To 12-9-65, Side Oiler
'66 428 c.i.d. Police Interceptor, Cobra Jet, Solid Lifters
Casting date looks like Sept. 7 1965 which looks like a S/O then?
Thanks,Mike
http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427b.JPG
http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427d.JPG
http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427i.JPG
http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427x.JPG

PDUB · #2 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 12:42 AM

It looks like a side-oiler casting, but it was definitely machined as a center-oiler... probably was a marine or industrial block. It was cast on September 7, 1965 per the 5J7 date code. It is cross-bolted on the three center mains. Looks like it is already 30 over...

Still could be a nice piece if it is in good shape. Post photos of the sides of the block if you can...

RICK LAKE · #3 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 04:57 AM

hkmp5 Mike, We need a l/s picture of the block. It is easy to make a FE motor look like a SO block. The only thing you can't hide is the oiling different.
Here's what I know,
1 You can buy and convert a FE block over to cross bolt caps and make it look like a side oiler from the out side as long as you don't look at the L/S of the block.
2 Screw in freeze out plugs, You can buy theses on the FE forum. They look they close to the original ones but understand the size or threads are different
3 You need to have this block sonic checked and bore measured. The safe max overbore without doing some block filling is .030". If the block is .030" you have options. Have a custom set of pistons made for .035" over. Not cheap but will save the block for another rebuild. Here the bores over size numbers I am know. stock size, .005", .010", .015" .030", .045", 060" This would give you 6 rebuilds from stock, a life time unless you windowed the block and then still could be reused.
4 Are the caps the orginial ones to this block?? I have gone to swap meets and brought a set myself for a FE motor. I got burned on my first FE motor with thinking and the guy saying it's a 428 motor. I trusted him. I ended up with a 390 block and 428 crank. The motor was a 68 build. From now on I measure all parts before buying. The spacers look new for the side bolts. I know one of the guys on the forum sell side bolt spacers and bolts that are orginial looks. There is a trick to use black pipe and cut to fit. Have to flat spot the block for this to work. All you need is to mill inside the motor at the main supports. This makes a 1,500.00 standard bore block now worth 5,000.00.
I am going with the 428 PI block or a service block until you can get a picture of the l/s inner and outter if possible. This is also a good block. Some where a higher nickle than the standard 428. Race blocks for the 428 Mustangs. If the block is sound, it will work anyway. Just know the limits on it. Save numbers are 450-475 HP and 500-525 pounds of torque. Using a stroker kit will get these numbers easy and not over abuse the block for years. Good oiling pressures of 65-80 for street and higher for track racing. Barry R will sell you a nice 482 stroker parts that will drop in if the crank caps and block are true and don't need alignment. You just need to tell him the CC of the heads you are using and the total camshaft lift on the valves. You don't want Mr. Valve whacking Mr. Piston.:eek That's bad.

Good luck, send the pictures. Rick L.

FFR428 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:52 AM

I say 427 topoiler. The reason being the 427 topoiler had the oil pressure relief valve right above the cam plug at 12:00 like that one shows. That block has the wrong plug there and should be checked inside for the relief valve and spring. If not they can be bought from vendors like Doug G. Std 428 or CJ did not have that feature. Next brass freeze plugs or what looks to be anyway. Marine or industrial. Last the boss for the sideoiler relief valve is not machined nor is the plug that would be on the face of the block either. Rick L has very good advice on inspection. Just my take on the block ID.

FFR428 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:53 AM

Forgot to add it's also a solid lifter only block. Unmachined bosses at 10 and 2 o'clock by the rear cam plug show that.

FWB · #6 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 09:25 AM

agreed that you need to check bore size.......the lack of oil galley plugs in the back around the cam tells me its a solid lifter block.
marine and industrial blocks were hydraulic so its not any of those.
basically i can tell you what it's not
not marine
not industrial
not sideoiler,
it may not even be a 427, but it might be if the bore is right.
if the bore is 4.236 or bigger its a 427 if its smaller, its a block made to be a crossbolted block.

hkmp5 · #7 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 11:43 AM

Thanks to all !
You guys are the best.
Here are the side pics.
What is a fair price/value for this block?
Thanks,Mike

http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427a.JPG
http://www.empowering.com/~hkmp5/427e.JPG

blykins · #8 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 11:51 AM

You can always identify a sideoiler just by looking at the very front of the block. A sideoiler will have a passage plug on the front, around the 4-5:00 position.

hkmp5 · #9 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 04:22 PM

Owners says top oiler.
New to this and was going by casting and casting date.
Could it be a crossbreed (S/O block casting finished as T/O?)
Is it worth $4K?
Thanks,Mike

PDUB · #10 (**permalink**) 10-31-2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkmp5

Owners says top oiler.

Could it be a crossbreed (S/O block casting finished as T/O?)
Is it worth $4K?
Thanks,Mike

As I said in post #2, this is exactly what it is... a S/O casting finished as a top/center-oiler... commonplace in Ford's lineup. Years ago, I had one of these that was from an irrigation pumping system. Many of these engines weren't finished with cross-bolts, but they were added later, which could explain the newer looking spacers in the cross-bolts. Ford sold them as industrial/marine engines.

Definitely buy the new block at that price... this one's not worth it in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

The other thought is that this motor can be converted over to a side oiling with a good machinist. All you need is to have the bottom side oil channel drilled out.

This may not be possible with the way the motor mount bosses were flycut and drilled into the side-oiler passage along the right side of the block... though, from the photo, this one doesn't look as bad as the one I had.

FFR428 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 04:44 PM

Yes cast as sideoiler but finished as topoiler. $4k is a bit steep normally those blocks are $1000-2000 tops.

FWB · #12 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:02 PM

4 grand ? not on the very best of days.....

walk away, buy a new genesis block. which will be a sideoiler and you will have all the updates to the design.

FWB · #13 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:05 PM

without knowing the bore size it could be a 390 someone added crossbolts to....

FFR428 · #14 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWB

without knowing the bore size it could be a 390 someone added crossbolts to....

Not with the relief valve. The only 390 block that had that was the early 61 HP 390 and of course the 4.13 bore 406 that followed in 62.

4SECA · #15 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 07:12 PM

There are a few good blocks on the FE Forum.com
There has been nos sideoiler for sale here in Monterey area.
Good luck

hkmp5 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-29-2011, 10:31 PM

Are there any current ads for this type of block?
Most ads here are years old.
Don't want to pass on this one (apparently high price)
if there are no others (original c/o or s/o) out there.
Please email me if you know of any.
Thanks,Mike

RICK LAKE · #17 (**permalink**) 10-30-2011, 04:06 AM

hkmp5 Mike Let me play the bad guy for a minute.
Here's the questions
1 Who said it was a Side oiler block??
2 The block has the ability to be a side oiler if it's drilled out on the back left side of the block. Rousch did this testing on a 390 for a build about 10 years ago. There is not pressure valve or 2 plugs in the back side.
3 What are you looking for in this car?? Originally, street car, track car, You have not said what replica car you have looked into buying??
4 There are 3 companies that manufacture FE blocks both in iron and aluminum. If this block was in cosmoline and you where looking for a 100 point cobra to build, this would be a good starting point. As others have said this block is a service block or solid lifter one. Center oiler is how this crank and rods gets oil.
5 I am going to go back to my first post, The ONLY way I would buy this block is with a sonic test and pressure test done to it. I want to know how thick the cylinders are. Ask the machinist to check straightness of the crankmains.
You will need to check out the prices of the Shelby, Ponds and Genises blocks for prices. I have 2 shebly blocks. Been racing one for 14 years with a 452 setup and now a 482 stroker kit I got from Barry R. Great kit, Great power range. The block is 16+ years old. Other guys worry about this I don't. If your build is in the 450-500HP range I see no problem with this block. Limit the rpms to 6,000 and it will last for years without anything other than oil changes and basic maintainance. If the block is new, it has no heat cycles and everything could move around in the casting. Us old racer used to look for motors that had 100K miles on them for being better blocks to work with. At this age they are very solid and broken in. You will need a good machinist that KNOWS FE motors. I can't enforce this enough. It's not a Dodge, GM, or AMC motor, whole different specs and build needed to get long life out of it.
Bottom line if the block passed all the test, 3,000.00 to 3,500.00 dollars for the orginial look. After this I would go after market and paid a little more for a new product. I think knocking about 200 pounds of the front of your car would also be something to look at. Aluminum block is 125, Iron is over 200. Heads in aluminum are about 15-18 pounds, Iron ones are in there 30's. Intake manifold is the biggie with iron being about 70-90 pounds and Aluminum in the 25 pound range. Big Block power on small block weight. If you want this block than buy it. I think more research needs to be done.
Last note, I used to be a solid lifter guy in my younger years. I have since gone to building endurance motors that make great torque in the 600ft pound level and not worry about 600HP. With the correct gears and trans ratios in the car you can have both worlds of 1/4 mile accelleration and street cruising. There are some good 5-6 speed trannies for this. Again you get what you pay for in cost. Rear end ratio should be in the 3.31-3.73 depending on the rearend. Transmission 1st gear in the 2.80's, any thing higher and you will never use it. I have a 3.25 1st gear and a 3.05 first gear in another trans and never use them except to drive around the pits. I know I will get a little flack with this but solid lifter motors don't like to be idling for any time the valve lash will cause wear and tear on the bottom of the lifters and the camshaft lobes. Solid lifter motors need splash of the oil to live because of the oiling system in some blocks. Your oil is going to be very important of what you run in this motor and how long it will last. Rick L. Ps You might want to call Barry R. or goto the Barnes &Noble book store and find his book about FE motors. Alot of great info and what to look for.

hkmp5 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-30-2011, 10:41 AM

Thanks Rick Lake.
Was adv. as a top oiler.
The casting #'s just made me wonder and some have said
that screw in plugs were all S/O.
This forum has been a great help (thanks to all responders)
I want to stay with original FE motor in my cobra.
Have a T/O now but this is a nicer block.
Not too many around from what I can find.
Thanks,Mike

FFR428 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-30-2011, 11:53 AM

Join the net54 Fe forum at 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum and place a WTB ad with your location. You might find something good close by and trade/sell your TO block in the process. Lots of traffic there and many members buy and sell and some don't advertise but have a stash of goodies. I have found and bought almost everything for my 427 build there and made some very good friends in the process. A ,lot of good parts pass through here too so keep and eye out. Try some of the old ads you see here. I bet you'll find some of the sellers still have them.

RICK LAKE · #20 (**permalink**) 10-30-2011, 04:56 PM

hkmp5 Mike if the price is right and it passes sonic test BUY IT. You can always sell it down the road. The other thought is that this motor can be converted over to a side oiling with a good machinist. All you need is to have the bottom side oil channel drilled out. Forget the pressure spring at the back of the block and use the pressure control in the oil pump. It will do the same thing just a different location. Most the work is alway done. Just a thought. Rick L.



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