Powermaster 9606 starter motor nightmare

[KevinW]

Have tried to finally start the FE, 2 gallons of fuel, fluids in, engine primed, dist back on and plugs and coil connected...but starter is dead. Engine def not seized - i previously removed the plugs and turned everything over with a breaker bar and socket on the crank nut - everything moves nicely.

When i try to start the car, there may be a very faint click when i try it, but def nothing like the usual clearly audible click you normally get when the bendix is stuck.

I have checked, using a multi-meter, that the earth is good from engine to chassis, the 12V feed direct from the battery is good, and the 12V actuation feed from the switch is fine. All voltages >12V. Ofcourse I can't tell if the right amount of current is being delivered.

No evidence of the lights fading when i try to activate the starter, so it sounds like the solenoid is dead to me.

I have clonked the whole lot with a hammer, no joy.

A friend has suggested removing the starter motor and checking it on the bench.

I have got a Powermaster 9606 like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...a/instructions

mounted to the bellhousing with 3 screws that can be removed with 3/8" wrench, although mine is a mirror image of this pic.

I have loosened 2 of the screws successfully mounted at 2 and 10 o'clock. But i am now stuck, with a ratchet spanner stuck between a mounting nut and the solenoid at around 6 o'clock next to the chassis rail, a really ****ty piece of design as there is insufficient room to fit a socket between the mounting flange and the starter body. I got a ratchet spanner in there to undo it, but that's now stuck as the screw has loos ened and moved out just enough to prevent the spanner from being removed, but insufficient to let me remove the screw altogether.

So...carry on trying to remove the starter? in which case i have a bugger of a screw to remove or try something else....????

[patrickt]

Before you add another tool to the side of your engine, try "jumpering" across your solenoid, which is presumably mounted to your firewall. Use a nice, thick gauge jumper cable for this, not a skinny wire. This is just to see if the starter will crank. It will make a spark if it cranks, so watch your eyes and wear safety goggles.

[66gtk]

If that starter isn't perfectly aligned and shimmed do not attempt to make it work or you will be replacing both your starter and your flywheel / ring gear. I would use your stuck tool and tighten things back in enough to remove your tool. Use an open ended wrench?

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

If that starter isn't perfectly aligned and shimmed do not attempt to make it work or you will be replacing both your starter and your flywheel / ring gear. I would use your stuck tool and tighten things back in enough to remove your tool. Use an open ended wrench?

Thanks, I thought shimming was not needed on Fords, only Chevy's?

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Before you add another tool to the side of your engine, try "jumpering" across your solenoid, which is presumably mounted to your firewall. Use a nice, thick gauge jumper cable for this, not a skinny wire. This is just to see if the starter will crank. It will make a spark if it cranks, so watch your eyes and wear safety goggles.

Thanks Patrick. I used the solenoid that piggybacks on the starter, so its a little more tricky to do under the car, but i do have a spare wall mounted solenoid, so maybe worth trying to bypass and add this in.

I am now wondering if the starter isnt earthing to the engine properly.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by KevinW

Thanks Patrick. I used the solenoid that piggybacks on the starter, so its a little more tricky to do under the car, but i do have a spare wall mounted solenoid, so maybe worth trying to bypass and add this in.

I am now wondering if the starter isnt earthing to the engine properly.

OK, I gotcha. You know, even if you have the starter in wrong, misaligned with the flywheel, and generally a RodKnock half-ass type of installation, it's still going to make a good bit of noise when you turn the key if you have 12v+ going to it, 12v- going to it, and it's not broken. I think I might pull it out, bench test it, and then do a careful reinstall.

[66gtk]

Originally Posted by KevinW

Thanks, I thought shimming was not needed on Fords, only Chevy's?

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what kind of block you are using. If you are using a seasoned iron block I've found that the OEM full size starters work pretty darn good, and offer the best value. I pulled my expensive Powermaster that ate a few flywheel teeth due to improper installation by a previous "professional" and replaced it with the OEM starter I got from the parts store down the street. Works great. Some have found that the newer aluminum blocks won't mate up well with the OEM starters.

[patrickt]

I've had the same old, big-ass OEM starter for a decade now. It's never even hiccupped once. I've even driven the car up on to a flatbed using nothing more than this starter.

[KevinW]

OK, just for clarification, this is an old iron 1972 Ford FE block, Lakewood bellhousing , mating up to a small spline 4 speed toploader. I am using the Powermaster solenoid on the starter. Thinking it may be worth rigging up the traditional firewall mounted solenoid I have in the parts bin to see what happens.

[KevinW]

OK, thanks for all the help so far.
I finally extracted the wrench.
And, as suggested, tightenend everything back up.

Now I just want to check I haven't done something really stupid here.
First up, I connected the unit using the terminal shows here:
http://thumbs1.picclick.com/d/l400/p...arter-351M.jpg

http://image.fourwheeler.com/f/10469...er_mounted.jpg

The fat terminal was connected direct to my battery (via an FIA cut out switch), and the skinny terminal was connected to the ignition switch, on the 'start' setting.

So, Q1 - can i confirm this is correct?

I checked the earth on chassis/frame engine and starter body- all earths seem good.

So this w/e I tried to bypass the starter solenoid. However, I have now chickened out of this after i made some more measurements. I had assumed that the place to bypass the solenoid was to connect the battery feed to the terminal under the blue plastic covering shown in the bottom pic. This seems to connect the solenoid section to the starter motor part of the unit. However, I found that there is a direct path to ground from this terminal to the solenoid, so i was worried that connecting the battery in here would kill the battery.

So Q2: How do you bypass the solenoid on a Powermaster starter?
and is this terminal meant to have a direct path to ground?

I see that the Powermaster literature talks about an earth/ground lead, but I had assumed the unit didn't need a separate earth/ground lead, and would earth through the engine to the frame.

My patience is now running a little thin :-/
Any further comments and help much appreciated.

[Gaz64]

There two terminals on the starter.

Leave the big battery lead off the starter (insulate the terminal temporarily) and just have the small start lead connected.

These two leads are side by side, the other side (under the blue cap) is the motor winding side after the solenoid contacts.

Operating the starter should then allow the pinion to mesh, to check all of the necessary clearances etc.

Don't even think of operating the starter until these measurements are correct.

Pinion mesh depth axially and radially must be correct or noisy and failure is the result.

They also don't like lots of ignition timing that might cause starter kickback.

Gary

[KevinW]

Thanks Gary.
So if i understand correctly, you are suggesting i attach the key switched +12V to the small terminal as i had previously, and then attaching a solenoid switched 12V feed to the terminal under the blue cap?

I am not sure I understand how feeding 12V to the small terminal helps if the in-built solenoid has failed? Or does it activate the motor windings as well?

'Operating the starter should then allow the pinion to mesh, to check all of the necessary clearances etc.
Don't even think of operating the starter until these measurements are correct.'

I also dont know how to make any measurements without actually spinnng up the starter - the sheet i have suggests i make marks on the output spines to check they mesh with the flywheel when its activated?

Sorry if these are dumb questions, just trying to understand all this. Previously i have used a stock starter, bolted on, and done.

[Gaz64]

12 volt on the small terminal, operates the solenoid and meshs the pinion with the ring gear, BUT does not turn the engine.

We can leave it operated like this, to check the mesh depth of the pinion.

When you are happy with this, you then fit the heavy battery lead to the large terminal next to it.

Gary

[KevinW]

OK thanks, i didnt know that. The solenoid isn't even clicking, so looks like its gonna have to come out, either way.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by KevinW

OK thanks, i didn't know that. The solenoid isn't even clicking, so looks like its gonna have to come out, either way.

... it's a lot easier to bench test it that way.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

12 volt on the small terminal, operates the solenoid and meshs the pinion with the ring gear, BUT does not turn the engine.

We can leave it operated like this, to check the mesh depth of the pinion.

When you are happy with this, you then fit the heavy battery lead to the large terminal next to it.

Gary

And obviously, you disconnect the negative at the battery, before you fit the positive at the starter.

Gary

[Gaz64]

This is a new starter motor, and 12v on the small terminal AT THE STARTER MOTOR does not energise the solenoid? (Of the starter, not a firewall mounted solenoid).

Is that correct?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

This is a new starter motor, and 12v on the small terminal AT THE STARTER MOTOR does not energise the solenoid? (Of the starter, not a firewall mounted solenoid).

Is that correct?

That's why I call for a bench test.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That's why I call for a bench test.

Yes, agree, I would do that with a new starter, especially out of a box, versus reconditioned where you know it would be tested.

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

This is a new starter motor, and 12v on the small terminal AT THE STARTER MOTOR does not energise the solenoid? (Of the starter, not a firewall mounted solenoid).

Is that correct?

That is correct.... unless that solenoid is very quiet compared the Ford one I have.

Its new-ish. The engine has been standing for 4 years following delivery from the engine builder (who is now retired). The cam was run in on the dyno. Last winter the garage was very very damp so even my S&HG air filter housing started to rust (got a Carcoon for this winter). I think this is what did for for clutch, which was fine the previously. So I suspect the insides of the solenoid are rusted. Engine def not seized - i can comfortably turn it on a breaker bar on the crank nut.

So all the evidence is saying pull this mother out, like Patrick said a while back...been trying to avoid this as its a total SoB to remove If it aint easy to fix I am tempted to just get a standard ford starter now, no messing about with meshing and shimming on the flywheel.