3 Hrs on engine and a Spun Bearing

[Clois Harlan]

I took my new 428 CJ engine to Omaha for some track time. As I was going into a series of turns I heard a knocking noise so I shut the engine down and pulled into the pits. The new engine had only 3 hours of time on it when a bearing spun. Never turned more than 5500 RPM's and yet this happens. Plenty of oil everywhere (we thought). Cut the filter apart and inside all the pleats and in the bottom was lots of copper/aluminium bearing junk. After my last engine catastrophe I replaced everything including the block except the crank and rods. I have driven my stock 69 Mach I harder and much longer and never had a problem. This is really the frickin pits.

Brent I know how you feel!

My machinist will stand behind the engine but it is just so darn inconvenient and a real hassel. Pulling the engine is no big deal but squeezing that baby back into the engine compartment and hooking up everything including the frickin hydraulic clutch is a pain in the a$$. I haven't had a real good experience with the FE engines and I am seriously considering going back with a strocker small block.....but the conversion back to small block will be so expensive.

Sorry guys just rambling and needed to vent a little.


Clois

[Chaplin]

Clois-
Sorry to hear about your bad luck, that really sucks. Although, you seem to be handling it much better than I would be. If it were me, my post would be filled with words with %$&#@!? every other word. Hang in there, eventually you will get it sorted out and it will be worth it.

Mike

[xlr8or]

You could always go with a 460. Nice dependable BB.

[jhaynie]

Better now with three hours and under some sort of warranty than 300 hours and nothing to fall back on. Still a major pain to have to stop and start all over again.

[Clois Harlan]

Again, the cost of conversion. However, I could have a nice garage sale that might go something like this:

Nice 428 CJ Block bored .030 (line honed and decked) $$$
Like new Edelbrock FE aluminium heads (barely used) $$$
Edelbrock FE Performer Rpm 4V Intake $$$
Edelbrock FE Alum Water Pump $$
Edelbrock 2X4 FE Intake w/ Edelbrock 650 carbs $$$
Like new (3 hrs use) Comp 572 lift solid cam and lifters $$$
Like new .030 Sealed Power pistons $$$
Good used Toploader (RUG AH) @ Hurst Cobra Shifter
LN MSD Distributor and 6al box
LN Ford Alum Fe Valve covers
Lakewood bellhousing w/ mcCleod t/o brg and Ram clutch....


etc etc

This has been a real bad road trip. First my engine goes south and then I drive 450 mile back to Tulsa against 50 mph winds with Tornados dancing all around me in Missouri and Kansas(averaged 4.8 miles per gal @ $1.33/gal) in my Expedition pulling my 20' enclosed.

Anyway, I am getting better now hopefully I can stop the bleeding soon.

[Rick Parker]

Clois:
Check the rod big end bore for proper size and bearing "crush".

This IS the "pits".

Rick

[RallySnake]

Clois,

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I don't know much about 428s, but after spending days in my friend's machine shop putting my engine together, I drove it on the street for a while. I feel like you have to let the parts "get friendly" with each other before running on a race track. I hope that helps,

Paul

[BevanWright]

Clois, that is bad luck.

I have been racing cars for 15 years, and have had various run bearings, etc over that time in different cars.

In your case the only fool proof solution is to dry sump the engine. I have a race big block Cobra (Chev powered tho) with dry sump, and you can push it as hard as you like in corners, braking etc, and be assured that the oil supply never gets a problem.

All proper race cars tend to have dry sump systems - there has got to be a good reason for it eh? With FEs having oiling problems, it would certainly be a good insurance on your engine. (I am surprised the engine builder covers your motor for racing)

If the cost of a dry-sump is too much, there are the oil pressure devices that could be worth a try, these hold a certain supply of oil that regulates the pressure in cases of oil surge.

Good luck in getting your car on the road again.

Cheers

[Brent Mills]

Crap! I thought this sort of thing only happened to me. Very sorry to hear of the troubles Clois.

Hopefully your builder can figure out what caused the problem. BevanWright is on the right track for getting an accusump. I know lots of people with them, and it's extra peace of mind.

Good to hear that the builder is holding up his end of the bargain! Hang in there man!

[xlr8or]

Sorry to hear about your engine troubles. Hope you and the builder get it worked out.


It could be worse. If you were driving through the hosed up republic of California it would have cost you $1.95 a gallon for regular unleaded.

[KobraKarl]

#$^#$%!#^#%$#%^%*^*(^()*%!!#@!$@#~!@%
There .....I said it for you !! sorry to hear it ,but keep it up Clois , my first build went 50 yards I agree completely with paul about introducing the parts to each other kinda slow.
KK

[speed220mph]

Think I have a clue about your engine failure: " After my last engine catastrophe I replaced everything including the block except the crank and rods."

Did you replace the oil cooler? If not, there's a good chance debris from your previous catastrophe in the oil cooler created your new catastrophe. Our practice from all engine failures, be it TransAm, Indy, stock car or whatever racing, was not to even think about cleaning out the cooler when it was involved in an engine failure, but to drive over it with a fork lift and throw it away. Otherwise the "cleaned cooler" would eventually pass debri that didn't get removed and find it's way into the new engine and result in the same story you just related.

Coolers are expensive, especially the Harrisons we trashed, but nothing compared to the expense of an engine.

[Clois Harlan]

Speed et al,

I did replace the oil cooler and all the AN 10 lines (about $400) as well as the oil pump. My builder was over when we broke in the cam and was concerned about low oil pressure (as low as 20 pounds at idle and only 25 pounds at 2000 RPM during run in) so we replaced the oil pump and put in a bigger spring that we bought from Precission Oil Pump in San Fran. Oil pressure stabilized at about 40 pounds. After replacing the oil pump the engine had good oil pressure before we took it to race in fact my oil pressure worked in conjunction with my tach. Kent was satisified everything was OK. When we started it up we had 60 pounds and then as the oil warmed up my pressure would drop to about 40 pounds.

I am real suspicious about my initial oil pump and the low oil pressure. I think the engine may have been damaged at that time. I don't intend to pull the engine until this weekend so my machinist will not be able to analyze anything until sometime next week. I am just not in the mood to do anything right now, still too pi$$ed off. Plus I have to go borrow a cherry picker again, maybe I should buy one.

Clois



Steve Carbone'

[Traveller]

20 PSI oil pressure at idle would not result in the problems you had.

I'd keep looking for some error during machining / assembly.

Hang in there!

[68gt500]

I second Traveller thoughts - look for some machining or assembly errors.

I rebuild my 428 5 or 6 years back with all clearances double checked. Oil pressure on startup is always off the gauge and 80 lbs and above at speed.

Only at a very slow idle of 800 and below RPM will it come down to 30-40 lbs.

I have really driven the wheels off the Shelby - high speed and revs on the Autobahn, stoplight GPs and the engine still comes back for more. Its as close to bulletproof as I have ever had.
I do have an oil cooler in my parts room, but haven´t even installed it because the are no temp issues. Oil temp is always below 135 degerees C. I have a 7 1/2 quart Cobra T pan though!

I´ll be installing E-brock heads this weekend, but will do nothing to the lower end.

[Clois Harlan]

GT 500
Thanks for your input. I was wondering if anyone had a 428 CJ engine that could hold up under any road race conditions. Information I received yesterday was really discouraging, because I have been told by a couple engine builders that the FE engine needs serious modification to successfully road race. Basically, the word was that the bearings were to small and a spun bearing was common.

I would like to know if anyone else has been able to road race a 428 and keep their engines together for any length of time. Don't get me wrong I am a Ford Man all the way but this engine design is probabaly 50 years old and the FE engine may not have been intended for this kind of abuse. I would apprciate anyone else's input before I decide which direction I am going to go next week.

Clois

[hound dog]

.

[hound dog]

Clois,
There has been racing development done on ford big blocks but not much in the last 25-30 years. Most racing development has gone to the small blocks. That being said, there is no reason you should be having bearing problems with the 428, although I feel like 3 hours is not enough break in time for a street engine. The bearing probably seized because of oil starvation related to an obstruction of the hole that feeds oil to that bearing or the bearing just being too tight. You will probably never know. Have the machinist double check all clearances when he reassembles the bottom end and write them down for you. Give the engine about 500 miles to break in and then go for it.
Just spent this week replacing a head gasket that blew between 2 and 3 and between 3 and 4. Too much timing or maybe the head bolts came loose....I'll never know.
Good luck
h dog

[dscott]

Clois, One thing I heard years ago that I've taken to heart is with the oil system. Running down the road at 70 mph on an engine that holds 5 quarts of oil only leaves about 1 quart in the pan. The rest is in the engine and filter. If you are using a stock pan this could cause oil starvation in the corners. It might not show on a gauge because it can happen so fast. I would use a good road race pan that holds a greater quantity of oil and has the baffles which stop the oil from all running to one side or the other. A good accusump system is also inexpensive and will maintain oil pressure if it drops below a certain limit. They are also great for startup because you can prelube the engine before you start it.

Sorry about your trouble.
Don

[RICK LAKE]

Clois Harlan Sorry about the motor. 20 psi of oil pressure at idle is not enought. This motor has small bearings to start. This is why alot of the strokers are using chevy rods, wider bearings. I have just put an accusump 3 qrt on my car. It will preoil also. When the motor is pulled apart what bearing was spun?? Do you have the oil limiters going to the heads for the rockers? The pressure valve for the oil sound like it was suck partially open. 5500 rpm is not going to hurt any motor unless you are doing long high G sweepers. Give George a call and see if he can give you any help. I want to see you at Run&Gun this year. Lew too, with the gas powered blender. I would check the cam bearings also. Hope you find the problem Talk to you soon. Rick Lake ps stroker small block are cheaper to build but there is nothing like a FE. I know this will start some noise.