I think what KC said makes total sense,,after thinking about all of this,I do think most of us speak from sentiment,or passion of something we like,or Dad had,,etc etc.
I admit I have tremendous affection for the fe's,but who knows,if my 63 galaxie had of had a 292,,I may fight for those,,lol
I also admit to a strong dislike of 385 engines,no offense to anyone,I think this is rooted in the early to mid 70's when the fe's were being fazed out,the 385's then were junk,,boat anchors,plain and simple,I was parts and service mgr at a ford dealership during those years,so I feel qualified to say that,a good 390 would eat up a 429 cj then,and we had constant nightmares ,cooling problems,rocker arm and valve train problems were endless,I remember ordering replacement shortblocks for a 460 van,if memory serves we went thru 3 NEW engines in a 3 or 4 thousand mile van ,bad block castings,My warranty parts hold bin was FULL of 385 engine parts,when the 390's and other fe's were coming in at 145k for regular service and light overhauls ,that sort of sets your mind in negative way.
BUT,,in retrospect,from 73 thru 82 or so,,EVERY part of EVERY car was junk,epa had pounded detroit in a big way and had a huge effect on everything,the fe engine was fazed out because it wasnt interchangable with fords other engine lines like the 385,ford also felt it wasnt wise to develope emissions for the old engine,which was more expensive to make than the more modular 385 series ,out with the old and in with the new.
The 427 was an all out racing engine,the only true racing engine to come out of detroit,it was the highlight and finale of fords racing efforts of the 60's,this was in a time we did not have aftermarket parts, outside shops capable of producing high tech racing parts and components,the 427 stands alone here,there was never before and never again be anything like it,it was NEVER a passenger car engine,most 427's were service blocks bought thru ford parts or Holman Moody,what very few cars equipped with the 427 were NON warrantied and considering for racing only,it's my opinion most people who talk about them group them with 390's and 428's,even though simular,they are worlds apart ,when ford dropped out of racing not many could afford the 427's cost,roughly 3 times that of a 428,or 429,since it was an exclusive block casting took several times the assembly time of the other engines.In my small world then,it was like EF HUTTON,when someone uttered "427" everyone listened,anyone would drive for miles to just see one of the rare monsters,and they were rare even then.
All that said ,my weak point is maybe I have been unfairly biased against the 385's,there undoubtly capable of more power ,and no doubt have enjoyed 30 years of developement ,not to mention cheaper,but my opinion on one thing wont change,in the real world,when all this started,when racing was racing,when you bought your parts from the local chevy/ford/or mopar dealer,the 427 stands alone,nothing else came close, I do wonder how things would be if ford stayed in racing,and futher developed the fe,but truth is,its too big to be a small block,and too small to be a big block,and was the best that the 50's and 60's could offer us,,damn I love em,,and still hate 385's,but thats what makes this great,,I have said this before,if we all werent clingers in some way,none of us would be spending ridiculous amounts of money and effort on an antiquated car that offers the same creature comforts of riding a motorcycle,a small motorcycle at that,,lol,,ain life grand ?
I feel much better now,,FYI I also HATE SBC crate engines in street rods,
I also enjoyed the thread,,but I still want one of them crossbolt station wagons,a white woodie with red guts would be my choice,and one of those silver and pink trailers to pull behind,,
hehehe,,Tim

Anyone notice as Tim rambles on more and more, his "." (period) key stops working and he resorts to the "," (comma) ?

Just curious. ;)

Most informative engine thread I've read here in a year.
The 289 FIA Homologation Papers thread was also top notch. I love these threads where I can LEARN something - even if it is at the cost of someone getting their panties ruffled.

But let's keep the moral police out of here for now and let this thing take its course.

Maybe a moderator can rename it "Everything you never wanted to know about Ford V8's" - I don't remember the last time we talked about the CS Aluminum 427.

Can we talk about the Windsor Small Blocks now, guys? Even if there's nothing to say and its boring stuff. I don't care. I really need to round out my learning experience here.

Thanks....
JP

:)

IMHO there have been a few posts worth reading - A FEW ONLY! All the little ratty-tat-tat-crap really should not have taken place. Strip this thing down to the 25 relevant and educational posts and we would all be better off!;) Like Turk stated EARLY in this THREAD, "it's about ME, ME, ME", why, because some people feel the need to validate their opinion by detailing work history.:JEKYLHYDE Who asked? I got it the first time and that was once too many. (:o - yes it's a yawn) Have a great day I'm outta this thread!

Posted by Moderator: "... buried within the bravado herein is actually some good info... I would like to see a dialog continue... without the crackling static that has the moderators on DEFCON3.

Keep the thread going, but without squaring off like this, OK?

Ron
ClubCobra Moderator"

I will add DEEPLY BURIED!!!:CRY:

Total Posts: 221
User Posts
steelcomp 43
misfit41 17
BANDIT 1 16
Jamo 15
Excaliber 13
RICK LAKE 11
CSX 4027 11
Keithc8 9
MidOHasp 9
bret a ewing 8
Turk 6
Bernie Knight 6
SnakeBitt 5
jwoodard 4
ToyCollector 4
PatBuckley 4
computerworks 3
rdorman 3
Cracker 3
sgianino 3
mr bruce 2
RACER X #99 2
decooney 2
ItsOnlyMoney 2
Sizzler 2
Russ Dickey 2
FeWedge 2
Anthony 1
427Aggie 1
JRoss 1
Tim Brewer 1
Dave Rodak 1
Ron61 1
392cobra 1
Barry_R 1
ERA Chas 1
hoppy 1
DC COBRA 1
dynoroom 1
Mr427 1
Power Surge 1

hehehe
Yes,I do ramble dont I ? "." = "I'm done talking bout that"
"," = " I'm Not done talking bout that"

I agree,great thread,,,thanks Guys,,Tim

I say lets stop all this usless ratta tat tatting and just let Cracker talk,when he is finished talleying up the post. :}
being an expert on dealing with negative personality pessimist,I feel qualified to say that ,:} T

Cracker,

Just an FYI, your latest post does not fall under the "good useful post" heading.

It falls under the "did you just waste your time with that?" heading.

:JEKYLHYDE !!! ;)

Tim,

OK,,,fine,,,if you want to use all commas (even when 3 periods in a row, an ellipsis, indicates "not done w/ that",,,,then you go right on ahead,,,and i won't complain about it anymore. ;)

PS - Cracker, as usual if you don't like it don't read it. The work history helps us establish some degree of credibility.

"I changed the oil once on a 460 and added coolant once to a 427 and definitively, without a doubt, the 460 is a superior motor."

"I built 460s for every winning race team in the 70's, now let me tell you a little bit about 460s".

Post 1? I will skip.
Post 2? I will read.

Actually, I will read all of them because my time is not so important that I can't. Unlike some, I guess.

And I really think that the "ratty tat tat tat" and other errant bulls..t has helped morph the average post from scathing to informative. So a few guys who are in the "know" got sick of reading a bunch of emotionally charged posts with no basis in reality and stepped up the reality coefficient. Thanks Keith, and thanks Steelcomp, and thanks a few others I forget who you are.

Bravo to those who have learned me a little about Ford Big Blocks. To the pissers and moaners, :p ............. ;)

I love it,,and thanks
does anyone know the medical term for "Cumulative Comma Complex" ?
Midohasp,,thats sort of what I was trying to say,but your so much better at explaning things than me,{seriously}
I bet I am the most fun date though,,;} Tim

May I just say this: I take pride in the logos and images on the wrappings and packaging on Ford spare parts as they have been since 1966. It shows a blackened shadow streaking along at breakneck speed ... a Ford GT-40. Sitting in the back seat is one mother- in-law you do not want to get too upset. This is a Shelby, H&M and perhaps some other dvelopment of an engine that has at the time taken over ten years to perfect from the initial drawings that became the 332FE of 1958, with solid lifters, machined combustion chambers and quite a departure in HP from previous Ford engines.

The fact of the matter is that such magic only exists once in a century. I tried in a previous post to describe it as if I had been there and it just can not be duplicated. Today you can go to Wal Mart & Speed and buy a new 700 horsepower Chevy engine and strap it to a lawn mower and go 200 MPH. What is tricky, interesting or even challenging about that?

The Ford victories in the international arena in the sixties are like some of the music that was written during that time. Good vibrations anyone? You can have someone who is new to the sport come up and do some pretty cool stuff, but those of you who were old enough to witness it all, can shrug and say it has been done before, under worse conditions.

I took my SCJ Spoiler out for a spin last night and what can I say. This feeling permeates all the way through. I have been at it for a good number of years and this is my conclusion. It is like having a genuine 1862 Long Rifle, a bona fide front loader. It is from another time. Showing off is nice and a rumbling monster like some of these cars inspires younger people and strikes fear into the heart of some, but I just don´t care.

Took it to the track a couple of weeks ago and took a few runs for practice. Lost to a Honda Civic because I lost all visibility in the tire smoke, then had to stop mid way because after burning both rear tires so furiously for about 200 yards it almost flew off the track, went sideways and I almost wrecked one of 1631 built.

My tribute to the FE will be to build a 427 pwered GT-40 replica. I don´t care if I drive it on my 60th birthday for the first time.

But the argument is long since settled. There never will be anything in this world like an angry 427 Ford, a Jim Morrison (who incidentally owned one of the first 1967 GT-500s built, a James Dean, Sinatra or Kennedy.

Muscle Car review closed the argument many years ago in an article on the greatest engines ever built for any use. I am not going to say it again. They, however, said: "IF in doubt, just ask one of its victims"

The winnings came when and where it counted. When the wailing of the 427 on European superspeedways finally faded in about 1972 it had turned the racing world on its ear and caused the lexicon of motorsport rules to be rewritten completely. The French - dominated FIA banned engines larger than 3.0 litres, so the 289s were outlawed as well.

No other engine has the record to show: Drag racing, NASCAR, SCCA, IHRA, NHRA, FIA and many other bodies. The cost was 100 million dollars in c.a. 1968 currency. When it was all over we saw a very dull time. Yes, the seventies. What came after ..... came after.

But you can still do interesting stuff, dig up some history. It happened at 5500 feet in the center of the Greenland glacier. A shadow in the ice-oscilloscope. It was a pristine P-38 Lightning fighter plane. The White Ghost as it was known to German fighter pilots. They dug it out and it is now probably ready to fly again. It is pure magic and it was the queen of the skies in 1945 along with perhaps the F-4U Corsair. But you will not put one of them aginst a French Mirage, but you will put an F-22 and we know how that works out.

For its time, the question of supremacy is closed. I rest my case.

In NASCAR, it isn't about the Engines anymore, it's about the Driver. Or, at least that's the way NASCAR wants it. After a win, people should go over and pop the hood on the car and talk about the motor, not ask the driver what style RayBans he's wearing. We may never "see" (or should I say "hear about") the great battles that took place behind closed doors at Ford, Chevy, Moper, etc, in the engine design / development division. Oh, it's still going on (somewhat) but it's kept "behind closed doors" because the media doesn't care about THAT. Chevy's "mystery motor", Fords FE, Mopars HEMI, .........all designed with nothing in mind but RACING, and the press wanted to find out all they could about them and be the 1st to get it in print. Not today. They assume the public isn't interested in MOTORS; no, they're more interested in weather Jeff Gordon is wearing boxers or breefs.

Excal: I was the one that started the thread you spoke of that asked what cars did the 427's get put into. To this day I have yet to get, what I would consider, a complete answer. I've spent quite a bit of time on the FE forum as well, but it seems nobody is all that sure. I'm going to try my luck at the library and see what I can dig up. I've even gone to the local Ford dealership. They are supposed to get back to me........yea right.

Bandit: You're right about the 427 Cobra not fearing a 427 Vette, but I would say it has more to do with the weight advantage the Cobra has vs. the difference between the 2 engines. I don't want to start anything here (but it probably will), but as much as I admire the FE, I would say that if Shelby got his first wish and Chevy took him up on his "project"..........the Cobra would have been even faster with an L-88 427 Chebby. Just think what would have / could have happened with the ZL-1 in the Cobra! Chevy would have had an even bigger reason to further develope the ZL-1 if they had a Cobra to put it in.
With that being said, I would also say that if the 70 454 Chevelle would have had a Ford 460 in it, it would have been an even bigger success. The design of the 385 is superior to that of the Chevy and we will never know what "could have been" in the 70's thanks to Ford being late on the draw (or drawing board) and Nader / emmissions regulations. Had Ford come out with the engine a couple years earlier, who knows????

Mr427,,Great Thread,, Snakebitt,I have the model breakdown numbers on 427's at home,tonite or in the am I will share it with you,but for sure,the 427 was NEVER in any kind of truck,nor station wagon,barring maybe a factory team car,mercurys answer to the tbolts were comet wagons with 427's,but I am not sure if these were factory installed as were the fairlanes.I wont say until I look for fear of misquoting,but the total number of 427's leaving ford in cars was very very small,and when they did it was a special ordered "racing use only " option,the owners manual was stamped in big bold red ink " No Warranty" ,,in a nut shell the 427 was never in a grocery getter.
Many of fords ads of the time listed the 427 as availble in various models,Most of which were never built,I cant recall the details,but something to do with either nhra or nascar rules dictated the engine had to be offered in certain models,or certain number of models.After 1964 and the word was out on the 427,it was next to impossible to get any new car with the engine,for the same reason several cobras had 428's,the race teams got first dibs,ford was out to win.
And as you said,,not to start anything,Shelby NEVER approached chevy for the cobra project,thats a whole nother story non cobra related.Unless I am mistaken the zL1 was 1968,5 years after the 427,with only 50 made for factory drag teams , and even though made maybe 25 or 30 more horsepower than the fe,fell short by maybe 75 lbs of torque,I have had an L88,nothing even to discuss there.
Ill post the numbers soon,,Tim

Misfit, I'm sure many of us would love to see the 427 "list"! The reason I speculate a station wagon had a 427? Went to NAPA to get a starter for my ERA. They said what car? I said 1966 Ford Country Squire Station Wagon with a 427. They had a listing for the starter!

Tim,

1969 Camaro SS with ZL-1 option.........69 made. Chevrolet had the same option in year 2002. A Camaro SS with the ZL-1 option.........69 made.

Regards, Bret.

Thanks Bret for clearing me on that,something maybe an ex chevy GM should know,,lol
In Muscle Car enthusiast mag a couple months ago they did a dyno test between a zl1 and a 64 427 lo riser from a 64 maurader,both were from the pure Stock Drag class cars and were cc'd and checked to determine they qualified as stock.
It was a neat artical although I wish they had used a more comparible chevy 427,even though it seemed to be chevy biased{isnt everything} the old fe came thru shining, the zl-1 made more HP when they added long tube headers,but the fe still made considerable more torque,I would be happy to fax this to any one who wants to read the artical.
Earnie,I was only ribbing you on the station wagon deal,,I didnt even think you were serious,but I know what you mean about the engines being grouped together, the modern parts stores use an elimination type software to look up parts in lieu of having "real" parts guys.
BTW banditt,,before you read my last post I wasnt meaning to dissagree with you in any way,just adding info.,,
Cracker,,How many post am i up to ?
have a great day guys,,Tim

Steelcomp,

Ken Duttweiler is a great guy, never has let his success get the better of him. Duttweiler's has always been the coolest place in Ventura County. Jim Barnard (sp) had a small shop across from the Automotive bay and would blue print our Berkley Pumps 30 years ago. I was always walking up to the skunk works to peek in and see what Kenny had in process. Yes, we had a 385 in the boat.

Gary

ZL-1,,,, was that the OHC V-8 from Chev?

:CRY: :CRY: :CRY: :CRY:

Ernie,,
in the 60's it was an all aluminum 427 ,I assume the new version is a small block based on the lt1 engine,,email ma a fax number and i will fax you the artical next week,,Tim

OH,,,,, I get it, then that was an interesting comparison test. No fax machine here, I do e-mail! :D

Only the first 300-some Ford Country Squire Station Wagons had a 427...they were the competition model and had a single 4bbl. carb.

Most of the rest of the Ford Country Squire Station Wagons had 428's with 2x4's on them.

In general, though, in the Wagon Queen Family Truckster bodystyle Station Wagons, there is only one true correct family of engines, the FE.

In the Ford Country Squire Station Wagon Sport Compact model (they eliminated the 9th row seats and put it on leaf springs)...this is commonly referred to as the Slab Side Ford Country Squire Station Wagon.... a small block is acceptable, be it a 289 Hi-Po or a 351W, although for the elitist groups, the 351C was always a more desirable motor in the Ford Country Squire Station Wagon Sport Compact.

Hope this clears some things up. :LOL:

Tim,

2002 camaro ZL-1 has the LS6 (Z06) corvette motor-400hp.

Regards, Bret.