What's up with all the 289 activity lately?

[PatBuckley]

Clay -

You hit it on the head....a Cobra -big or small block is a front mid -engine design.

My big block doesn't run hot at all - my shoes are safe! Perhaps the ones that the Kirkham run have tuning issues?

Trevor -

We drive these cars in the USA - they work just fine...thanks.

David K-

Find yourself with an oversupply of 289's? Sounds like it.


Pat Buckley

[TimG427]

I bet it was the special on Speedvision last night about the small block muscle cars. Pretty good viewing and quite a sales pitch for the small block cars of all types.

[David Kirkham]

Tom,

Your car should be a rocket! I must have pictures when you are finished with your chariot of fire. Also, not many people are as crazy as you are when making a motor. Strangely, the MOST EXPENSIVE engine records are both held by SMALL blocks. We have a customer right now putting in a Lemans 351 motor that was left over by a team that recently went bankrupt. I heard they charged the team 61K for the motor! I think 10K will get anyone a really, really nice small block motor.

Mike,

We have not yet weighed one of our 289 leaf spring cars. I will let you know how they compare next week. We have a container coming in with 3 289 cars. One is a leaf spring car. They were all sold quite some time ago and special ordered.

Almost exclusively, we sell the hybrid 289 cars. The leaf spring cars don’t handle as well and they are much more difficult to tune the suspension on.

I imagine your car will be under 2100 when it is finished. I am not sure though, and I would REALLY like to know your final weight.

We are getting an even mixture of 289 street cars and 289 FIA cars. We had a confirmation this morning on a 289 Street Hybrid and I am hoping to close a 2 289 FIA leaf spring sales today. We don’t sell many of the leaf spring cars, but it has been a little different lately. What am I saying, in February and March 289’s OUTSOLD 427’s for the first time EVER. I would have never dreamed it in a million years.

Typically, 289 cars are sold to customers who already have bought a 427 from us. All 3 of the 289 cars on the container are going to previous customers as well as the 2 289 Street Hybrid cars I sold earlier this week, as well as the 289 Street Hybrid that was just confirmed, as well as BOTH of the 289 FIA leaf spring cars that I hope to close today.

ASnake,

I think there is a whole bunch of visual impact with that car!

Trevor,

I may have been outed.

The new aluminum 427’s are SOOOOOOOO much better than the cast iron block 427’s. As soon as I get into a car, I IMMEDIATELY know if the car has an aluminum block and heads, iron block and iron heads, or an iron block and aluminum heads just by driving less than a mile. The iron block, steel flywheel, and iron heads is a DIASASTER, nose-heavy pig to drive. I imagine that is what you have driven the most of. The iron block and aluminum heads makes an acceptable soloution, but the car is still slightly nose-heavy. Now, the aluminum 427 with aluminum heads and an aluminum flywheel is DREAM to drive with regard to handling. Interestingly, it is almost identical in weight to a 351 with aluminum heads. Sounds strange, but we just weighed two of them and found virtually no weight difference.

For those who are interested, we weighed several combinations of cars on 19 Feb 2005 to see what was going on. I recorded all of the weights.

All cars were RUNNING AND DRIVING.

CSX4238
2490 pounds
90 pounds of fuel
2400 pounds corrected weight
Iron block 427
Lakewood steel bell housing
Flywheel unknown
Aluminum heads

Kirkham 427
2179 pounds
30 pounds of fuel
2149 corrected weight
351 iron block
steel flywheel
aluminum heads
aluminum bell housing

Kirkham 427
2070 pounds
20 pounds of fuel
2050 corrected weight
302 iron block
aluminum heads
aluminum flywheel
Lakewood steel bell housing

Kirkham 427
2158 pounds
10 pounds of fuel
2148 corrected weight
427 aluminum block
aluminum heads
Lakewood steel bell housing
Aluminum flywheel

CSX3104
2553 pounds
140 pounds of fuel
2413 corrected weight
427 iron block
427 iron heads
Lakewood steel bell housing
Steel flywheel

As you can see there is a substantial difference between an ORIGINAL iron everything 427 at 2413 pounds and a Kirkham aluminum everything 427 at 2148. Even the 2148 figure is an older number before quite a few of our latest light weight options were put on the car. I imagine, but I do not know, the latest options reduced the 2148 number by a further 50 pounds, (probably more, but I want to be conservative). So a Kirkham 427 of today is over 300 pounds lighter than an original car. Interestingly, a current CSX4238 car with aluminum heads and an iron block is almost exactly the same weight as our original CSX3104. 3104 had iron heads on it when it was weighed, (it has aluminum heads now), and there is a 40 pound savings when you use aluminum heads so the numbers are very close which is quite interesting, considering CSX4238 has an aluminum differential in it and aluminum heads it should have a 60 pound weight advantage over an original car but the numbers indicate the cars are within 13 pounds of each other. I am not sure where the other weight is.

So, from the numbers I have gathered, a small block of yesterday is really the same weight as a lightweight big block of today. The lightweight big block of today may even be lighter.

But, the car I drove was an extremely lightweight 302 with aluminum heads, and an aluminum flywheel. The new ultra lightweight car really, really handles like it is a completely different car--hence, the problem where we had to reduce the spring rates 3 times to get the car to handle properly.

So, it seems the British were right—to a point. The original car with iron heads, flywheel, and an iron block really did stink—I don’t think anyone disputes that.

If you want the mind altering acceleration of the original car, then you really only need a 2050 pound car with a small block pumping out 363 to equal an original 427 with 425 horsepower in a 2400 pound car.

So leave it to the Americans. If a little is good, then too much is just right. 2100 pound car and 650 horsepower!!! YES!!! That’s 3.23 pounds/horsepower. The original car was 425 horsepower at 2400 pounds which was 5.64 pounds/horsepower—or a whopping 25% increase in power to weight ratio over an original car. Maybe too much is…well, tooooo much.

I must come out of the closet. I love the ultra-light handling of the new small blocks. As I said, I felt like we had “discovered” a completely new car.

David

[David Kirkham]

Pat,

My last quote to a customer on the delivery date of a 289 was 4 months. We have 427's in stock. We do not have ANY 289's in stock. Frankly, I wish we did as there are now so many requests for them for some reason.

We have 3 289 cars that just arrived in Salt Lake City an hour ago in a container. They will not be delivered to us until early next week. All 3 were sold months ago. You can purchase a 427 from us today and the lead time is measured in a few weeks. If you want to purchase a 289 car today you will have to wait months as the aluminum for the car is probably still in the form of beer cans.

Customers on this very thread can verify what I am saying.

The 289 cars are far more difficult for us to make as we do not have nearly the same amount of tooling for the 289 cars as we do for the 427 cars. If anything we should raise the price of the 289 cars as they cost us significantly more to make. To date we haven't done that, but we have seriously considered it. The 289s are largely made by hand without much tooling.

As for tuning,

I have driven quite a few 427 cars with 427 motors made from builders from all over the country. I have probably driven around 100 different 427 cars--including originals. I don't think they all had a tuning problem--but, undoubtedly, some of them did. Regardless, there is no doubt the 427 engine in any state of tune runs hotter than the small blocks I have driven.

David

[LwCwb]

David, have you guys ever made a 427 Hybrid (Like CSX3002, 289 front and 427 rear?) Sorry, I couldn't find a better place to post this...it kinda fits in with the 289 Discussion.

[David Kirkham]

LwCwb,

Yes, we have made 3-5 of the 3002 cars. We have one customer who wants several of them, but I am not sure where that project stands right now. I'd have to ask Thomas as he it the one who has been working on the deal. I don't remember the exact number of them we have made, though.

David

[Trevor Legate]

As ever, I bow to your far superior knowledge on the big-block front David. I am a humble scribe but eager to learn - and maybe blag the occassional drive.....

Every time I get caught up in the small v big-block discussions, I always remember my old woodwork teacher who was a very skilful carpenter. He always said that for every craftsman who knew that a small fretsaw was the right tool for the job, some b*****r would insist on using a rip saw.

[Snakebit]

I researched Cobra's for about 5 years. Was dead set on a 427 with a big block until ERA came out with their 289 FIA. The look of a small sports car with the cut back doors and the big wide fender flairs really turned my head. I wanted a fast car but I wanted one that could handle well, that's the purpose of owning a sports car.

If I wanted just a fast car I would have opted for a 32 Ford coupe with a blown Hemi. I plan on using a 302 stroked to 331 and with a set of Webers should pull around 450 hp, more than enough for a 2200 lb car.

The race drivers said the 289 cars would out handle the 427's on the curves, but the 427's would pull away on the long straights. They also nick named the 427 the "Turd" because of the way it handled.

So I'll be taking delivery of my ERA 289 FIA #2100 the first week of June. Looks like a lot of others will be joining the club.

But the 427 will still be remembered as being the fastest production car ever built in its day.

[David Kirkham]

Trevor,



I doubt I have superior knowledge to you in any part of the Cobra world! Next time you come across the pond, I will be happy to go for a drive with you...maybe we could even sneak up Squaw Peak in one of the lightweight big blocks. Maybe we can even get you to come out of the closet!

Frankly, I love them both; but, for very different reasons. The lightweight aluminum big block accelerates like an F-18 off of an aircraft carrier's catapult. It is just the biggest, baddest, meanest, monster out there. When people pull up beside you in their hot rods...they take one look, and nod their heads with a respectful smile.

The ultra light 289's with aluminum heads and flywheels feel like...well, the only think I have ever driven that compares is a shifter cart.

Now, what on earth are we going to do if someone comes out with an affordable aluminum block 302 and throws another 75 pounds out of the equation!!!

David

[David Kirkham]

Snakebit,

Congratulations on your new ride!!! I bet you can hardly wait! I know I'd be breathing hard right now too. I am about to build myself a new car too right now so I know how you feel. I will be loading the car up with all sorts of new parts.

Send pictures, I love to see finished cars and cars in progress photos.

David

[Anthony]

snakebit,

the original 289 cars and 427 cars had different suspensions, with different characteristics that affected how well the suspension could be adjusted and tuned. The 427 chassis was a little heavier as well. So comparing how the cars handled was more than just comparing the weight difference between a small block and a big block.

with your ERA, I believe their 289 FIA chassis is identical to their 427 chassis, which is different from either of the original 289 or 427 chassis'. I think the ERA chassis is a little heavier than an orignal 289 chassis, but it appears to be a stong chassis. Although I think the ERA car is a great car, really the only difference comparing their 427 and 289 car is the body skin shape, and how heavy the engine/driveline is.


Dave Kirkham,

just curious, what percentage of the 289 cars (both FIA and street) you have been selling recently are hybrids as compared to the original leaf spring chassis?

[David Kirkham]

Total sales would probably be close to 50/50 because the Europeans buy so many leaf spring cars. We have really not tried to sell the 289 cars--which puzzles me and led to this post of wondering why so many people are now so suddenly interested in them. I say suddenly, but maybe I am the one at fault here.

However, lately, the sales are running 10/1 in favor in favor of the Hybrids. We have really only recently started selling the Hybrids in the past couple of years. Dave Dralle told us when word of the Hybrid finally made it out, we would sell them like crazy...maybe he was right and I should have listened to him and made more!

David

[David Kirkham]

This is unbelieveable,

I just got 2 more inquiries. 1 FIA Hybrid and 1 Street Hybrid. What is happening?

David

[Caustic_Cobra]

Hey David:

With all the 289 FIA talk, I need to get you or Thomas to send me your new transmission mounts for the tko 600 on my hybrid chassis.

I talked to Thomas about a week and a half ago, he mentioned you all were swamped there and to keep bugging you and him for the mounts.

Let me know the skinny and have a good Easter!!

[David Kirkham]

Mike,

Swamped...I need a canoe.

No problem on the Tremec mount. EVERYONE wants them now. Email me your address and we will send one right out.

Sal,

Mom did you paperwork today and it is on its way!

David

[Power Surge]

Originally posted by David Kirkham


This is unbelieveable,

I just got 2 more inquiries. 1 FIA Hybrid and 1 Street Hybrid. What is happening?

David

David, I am using my superior mind power to make people order cars from you.

No need to thank me, you can pay me with parts. I'll start with some 427 headers and side pipes and some Lucas electronics. You have my shipping address...

[Caustic_Cobra]

Gotcha David;

You've go a PM.

[Caustic_Cobra]

Excuse me. You've got a PM.

[David Kirkham]

Already in the box and I just sent you an email.

David

[David Kirkham]

I just stopped production of 427 cars and ordered an entire container of 289 cars.

David