My question does not include the word "Socialism" - there seems to be a tendency to get caught up in definitions; you have been trying to define socialism for a while; I am trying to get past that; is my question really that complicated?

fastd

It is already interfering in the banks and auto companies. We are not a socialist country but they sure do throw OUR money around.

Read HR676 and you will see it is a tax on everyone for health care for everyone. It is single payer. Everyone is in, the larger the pool the cheaper the insurance.

sunman

Actually, as I recall during the Clinton years there was some law that "dictated" (thought that might be an interesting word :) ) that no spending was allowed unless it was paid for. Increased taxes or reduction in costs elsewhere, a "Pay as you go" kind of plan. What ever happened to that?

Now due to the current economic crisis I can see where that law might not apply during these extra ordinary times. Like the bank and Wall St. rescues, sometimes the Gov has to take extra ordinary action.

Heres what I did,

I googled and read the bios of Obamas cabinet and all 535 congresspeople and senators. It will scare you to death. When I say THE GOVERNMENT I know who I am talking about and where they get their money. I don't just say 'Bush did this' or 'Obamas doing that'. I got informed about who is running this country.

"why do you worry about Socialism?"
I don't, I worry about the people in Washington.

Sunman

Excaliber

Paygo was in effect all through the 90s and led to surplus. In 2001 Congress waived Paygo and it died end of fiscal year 2002.

Sunman

I had such high hopes that tcrist would be joining us, he is an illusive rascal. My "corn", even sweetened, seems to have little effect on bringing him into the fold...

National Debt year by year. Some GOOD, nay, GREAT years where there was barely an increase. Maybe having a horny toad in office distracts him from spending. Clinton did some good, some bad. Less spending was one of the good things. But where is this "surplus" that liberals always refer to?


09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32

Dan40

The "surplus" is the difference between taxes collected and money spent by congress in the bills they approve per year.

The interest on the national debt is added to the national debt, thats why it goes up even with a surplus.

Surplus/ deficit and national debt are two different things.

We pay interest to banks in places like communist dictatorship China. A huge payment is due soon. Unless we print more money we can't make it.

I am the one that brought up the "surplus". I am not a "liberal". I am a American, Air Force lifer, retired. Why do you divide people you don't even know into conservative and liberal?

Like we are taught in the military "DIVIDE AND CONQUER".

Sunman

Sunman,

I agree with you; dividing people up into one camp or the other, pointing fingers because of some perceived party affiliation really does getting tedious...and it does not help the dialogue.

PAYGO was waived than canceled 2002, the reason cited in congress "bad economic times".

I may just be a former CFO of several international publicly held companies but that is without a doubt the biggest crock of **** I ever read.

Here is the definition of deficit.

The government's deficit can be measured with or without including the interest it pays on its debt. The primary deficit is defined as the difference between current government spending and total current revenue from all types of taxes. The total deficit (which is often just called the 'deficit') is spending, plus interest payments on the debt, minus tax revenues.[2]

This country is certainly moving toward socialism and away from capitalism. It's sad but true. I feel sorry for the younger generation that will not enjoy the same opportunities as I for financial advancements due to hard work and dedication.

No, it's not. Were dealing with the largest economic crisis since the Great Depression. No doubt plenty of people felt the same way then, "were moving toward socialism." Then along came WWII and a BUNCH of "social programs" and serious economic decisions had to be made. I'm sure many people felt we were moving to socialism once again. Then came the whole Communism witch hunt thing in the 50's, plenty folks felt we were in dangered by communist's taking over. That SAME TYPE of paranoia is what drives people to hold "Nazi" signs and get all angry and be divisive instead of constructive. It's mostly driven by "fear" NOT by some "love of country".

This is just another economic bump in the road that requires some serious action. I am amazed some folks have so little faith in our robust form of Government, a solid Republic it is and shall remain. Through this crisis and the next.

GM will survive, thanks to a Gov bail out, NOT "take over". The banks will recover, due in large part to the stimulus programs. Wall Street will thrive and once again top 11,000, maybe 12,000 this coming year! Unemployment will remain a serious problem for years to come, there's not much you can do about that. You can "throw the bum's out", but that's not going to turn around the job's picture. Wanna help? Offer some ideas!

Don't want to be painted with a liberal brush? Don't post liberal nonsense. National debt higher in any following year means there was no surplus. If you're not a liberal, don't cite liberal creative math.
OWE more, no surplus, owe less, surplus. Seems easy enough.

Dan your posts paint you not as a right wing conservative. They land you squarely in the "right wing nut case in a basket with serious hatred issues" camp. Just trying to help... :)

Your numbers are bogus Dan, straight up, just more twisted spin from the right.

Here are some more numbers someone might like to "rant about".

There was a surplus of $1.9 billion in fiscal 1999 and $86.4 billion in fiscal 2000.

The Federal budget was balanced, the deficit erased.

ahem..........

...i heard that...


OK then.... :)

How is ObamaCare going to relieve us from current economic conditions? The liberals want to control 16% of our GDP.

How is Cap and Trade legislation going to do anything but hurt the current economic climate?

The so-called stimulus bill has done what for small business owners?

I grew up when a guy had to save money before they bought a house. I also had to pay for a car. Now we have $10,000 tax credits for first time homeowners, and cash for clunker payments (C4C) for people that need a new Toyota.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...aR/Obama23.gif

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ualdeficit.gif

I really feel sorry for the younger generation that will pay for your so-called "social programs".

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...aR/Obama25.jpg

Jamo and Computerworks,

I must say that you guys give Excalibur a pretty wide berth to push the envelope. Quick to shut me down a couple of times when I supposedly cross the line - what is going on here?