No Amnesty part 2

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by stengun

Howdy,

This is a simple problem to solve.....

Make it a Federal felony to employ illegals. The sentence would be 10 years flat (without parole) in a gladiator style prison, not a country club type. Then all you have to do is enforce it. After you sent a couple of CEO's, plant managers and HR managers to prison, the rest wouldn't even think about hiring an illegal. Oh, if they claim they didn't know they were illegal, double the sentence. Here in Arkansas we already have a law on the books that allows for doubling the sentence if you batter a child under 12, or a person over 60. Just add unknowingly hiring illegals to the list.

Yep, once again we would hera Perot's "Gaint Sucking Sound", but this time it would be the illegals heading south for the border.

No jobs, no illegals. Pruddy simple to me.

Yea I know, this would never fly because both parties think that if the illegals are made into US citizens they will vote for them. Since most illegals have an ID that states they are US Citizens and they don't vote, what makes anyone think they will vote if they are made into legal citizens. Besides, look at how few citizens voted in the last election, or back in '04.

Plus it's easy to check to see if a person is illegal or not. All you have to due is call the Employment Security Division and they can tell you if they are an illegal or not.

Paul

Oh really? Please tell what agency this "Division" is part of?

Is this something they teach in Arkansas schools?

[427 S/O]

I don't remember a domestic issue that has angered more people than this 'immigration mess'. Your Representatives and Senators know full well from the millions of American citizens who contacted them. Obvious from all the face time.
I suspect we will not be pleased with the next proposal because it will likely be a 'trying to please everyone' bill.

If these millions of angered Americans stay involved, we will get a 'highly restrictive bill'.

[VRM]

Jamo,
A DB that is searchable by employers is a really bad idea. Something like that would be too easy to hack, and would also be a very inviting target.

I would propose something like the photo/thumbprint SS card, but have a second alpha-numeric code that changes every time you get a new pic. This code would be keyed at the Fed level to your SS number, photo, and thumbprint. An prospective employer sends the code (either by website or snail mail) and thumbprint to a processing centre and the centre sends out a copy of the photo attached to the card and confirms the thumbprint.

Later, if the guy is found to be an illegal, then the employer is absolved, unless the thumbprint of the person does not match the actual person.

BTW, this would be voluntary - at the employers discretion. But if the employer does not do this check - then they are liable for any fines if they get caught. They would also be allowed to hire the person until the results of the check come back. If the results come back negative then the results are delivered by an INS agent.

If you have something better, tell us about it. I want something that is not hackable, does not send SS information in regular mail or email, and places a resonable share of the burden on both the employer and employee, as well as gives the employer a point where they are not responsible for any fines, and gives the INS a place to look if someone does not properly match.

Steve

[imagine2frolic]

I have to agree with punishing those who hire the ILLEGALS! Give them severe punishment, and it will stop quickly. Also rewards for people who directly lead the govt. to ILLEGALS, and those that hire them.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

Jamo,
A DB that is searchable by employers is a really bad idea. Something like that would be too easy to hack, and would also be a very inviting target.

I would propose something like the photo/thumbprint SS card, but have a second alpha-numeric code that changes every time you get a new pic. This code would be keyed at the Fed level to your SS number, photo, and thumbprint. An prospective employer sends the code (either by website or snail mail) and thumbprint to a processing centre and the centre sends out a copy of the photo attached to the card and confirms the thumbprint.

Later, if the guy is found to be an illegal, then the employer is absolved, unless the thumbprint of the person does not match the actual person.

BTW, this would be voluntary - at the employers discretion. But if the employer does not do this check - then they are liable for any fines if they get caught. They would also be allowed to hire the person until the results of the check come back. If the results come back negative then the results are delivered by an INS agent.

If you have something better, tell us about it. I want something that is not hackable, does not send SS information in regular mail or email, and places a resonable share of the burden on both the employer and employee, as well as gives the employer a point where they are not responsible for any fines, and gives the INS a place to look if someone does not properly match.

Steve

Steve...it's obvious you don't understand, so it's probably not worth the time that would be taken up on this site. However, in a nutshell, the SS database is already accessable to insurance companies, healthcare, credit card companies and yes, even employers...just not in real time. Thumbprints rather than pics? Hell yes, I'd go for that...but the liberals would fight it tooth and nail. That's why the federal pic ID (same as drivers licenses, so harder to argue against).

I thought, having read the bill, you would have made yourself informed of the complexities of enforcement. Obviously, from your last statement, you're not aware of the SS Mismatch lists which go out to employers and have been for several decades. Once employers turn in payroll lists to the IRS and SS, SS will send you back a list of those numbers which do not match the names. The employer, even then, is not allowed to fire the employee (because the SS card is only part of the I-9 list of acceptable IDs), but must alert the employee that the number does not match up. The employee is then allowed to go fix it at SS (or go to the guy on the street corner and get a new card). Then the employee submits the new one back to the employer, which is then submitted to the government all over again.

Here's the rub (and I've assplained this several times in these threads...your memory retention is failing ), the SS takes months to send you that list even though you submit the names/numbers quickly after folks are hired. So, the only thing we want is real time SS number/name review...it's not new, it's just too slow. If we had a federal pic ID and the number/name doesn't match, and it's the only ID allowed, we could refuse to hire the person in the first place rather than try to fire them months later. Employers could then easily be held liable if they hire the person anyway...no excuse.

[VRM]

Actually Jamo, we already have a fed pic ID. It's called a passport.

And I did not say a thumbprint instead of a photo, both would be used. It would not be all that difficult to swap a photo, but it would be impossible to fake if the information were stored in a location (the fed DB) that a forger did not have access to.

I will fully admit that I do not submit I9 info for others, nor do I know how long it takes to get back. I suspect that it is reasonable to think that our govenment plods along slower than desired. In a perfect world your solution would be just fine. Problem is, there are people out there would would love to get their hands on that kind of information. Have you heard of a thing called identity theft? Imagine what could happen to the companies you listed (many of whom have already been hacked) if they did have realtime access? It's not very elegant, but rm *.* could play havoc with the entire financial foundation.

The solution to that is not to give more people access to information that should be very tightly controlled - that is how fraud happens in the first place. The solution is to have a biometric that is not carried on the ID card, but that can be read and recorded live at the time of job application/hiring.

Your problem with what is in place now seems to be the time delay in processing the information. I'm sure better computers/networks would help, but so would an incentive for government workers to get the job done quickly and accurately instead of the current situation. Automatic raises are not the way to get people motivated. That is probably a topic for another thread.

Steve

[cobra de capell]

incentive for government workers to get the job done quickly and accurately

Now, that is funny. That's going to happen when snowballs in hell have a chance.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

incentive for government workers to get the job done quickly and accurately

Now, that is funny. That's going to happen when snowballs in hell have a chance.

I know...Problem is that it really isn't that funny.

[Wayne Maybury]

The US Federal Government is already using another form of real time ID. Anyone that is a frequent flyer and who crosses the Canada / US border is probably familiar with the NEXUS program. The identification process is via an iris scan. It is quick, easy, and from what I have heard, fool proof. The only hitch is the need to have a scanner. With internet technology evolving at a rapid pace, it should be easy to come up with a low cost solution.

Positive identification takes only a few seconds and is based on a secure data base.

Wayne

[Jamo]

Gee Wayne, I'm sure that will be just the thing for every small business owner. Just like having everyone carrying their passport around for Steve's concept.

[392cobra]

My son lives in a little town north of Dallas called Oak Point. The city council passed a Resolution Saturday night 3-2.

They passed a Texan (fairly close to English ) Only Resolution.All city business will now be done in Texan only !!

This is the second town in North Texas to do this type thing the last couple of months.The other town,Farmers Branch,is English Only though.

I think they had too many (illegal ?) immigrates from Northern states to get the Texan Only passed.

GOD BLESS TEXAS !!!

BTW - I am only kidding very slightly.

[Wayne Maybury]

Jamo

I was just trying to point out that there is at least one viable alternative to the old finger print or picture ID question. The iris scan uses a central data base and is quick and easy. I also pointed out that the major draw back is the scanner but I think that this could easily be over come.

Hey, it's just an idea.

Wayne

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Jamo

I was just trying to point out that there is at least one viable alternative to the old finger print or picture ID question. The iris scan uses a central data base and is quick and easy. I also pointed out that the major draw back is the scanner but I think that this could easily be over come.

Hey, it's just an idea.

Wayne

I don't doubt your sincerety for a moment, my friend. My point is...it just isn't "viable."

Next thing you know, you folks will be selling us cheap medications.

[Michael4yah]

The reason "they" are not listening is because "they" are NOT AMERICANS. THEY ARE GLOBALISTS WITH A GLOBAL AGENDA. KICK EM ALL OUT EXCEPT RON PAUL. Forget about any new laws until every last illegal alien is out of our country, PERIOD!!!

[Michael4yah]

And it aint 12 million, its 40 million, you know how we know this? Its because thats how many are missing from Mexico!!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Gee Wayne, I'm sure that will be just the thing for every small business owner. Just like having everyone carrying their passport around for Steve's concept.

Jamo,
I have used my passport as ID with every job I have ever had. Including the job I had in high school.

Seriously, Jamo, go look up CALEA. I work on testing that (along with a bunch of other things) for the VoIP system that my company makes. Using that technology and a couple of the tools I use to test it I could make a huge mess out of the real time system you propose. Can you imagine the lawsuit stemming from some lettuce grower not properly securing his PC?

So what is the solution? Your method is a huge security risk, mine is (probably) too slow.

Perhaps we should start with securing the border and take it from there.

Steve

[Jamo]

Steve

Did you actually read what I wrote before?

All kinds of folks have access to the SS database...mostly insurance, credit and healthcare companies.

In fact, Homeland Security has had a pilot program (IMAGE) for several years in which employers had access to do exactly what I explained: They checked Social Security numbers in real time. One of those companies was Swift, believe it or not, which got hit with the big raids. The problem had nothing to do with the Social Security side of things. The problem had to do with the photo ID side of the I-9 form, ie., driver's licenses, etc. Again, if we had photos on the Social Security cards, we wouldn't have that problem.

In the several years they have had the pilot program with access to the Social Security database...zero problems.

During that same time period, literally hundreds of thousands of credit card account numbers/personal information held by Visa and Mastercard have been hacked, not to mention military laptops, etc.

If you would like actually become educated on the subject upon which you are offering up opinions about, take a look here: http://www.ice.gov/partners/opaimage/index.htm

The only phuking reason it is still a voluntary pilot program and not mandatory are the liberal basturds fighting what they believe to be an Orwellian threat to personal liberties. http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3861

I am defending an employer who is alleged to be discriminating against women by not hiring enough of them...a class action involving thousands of claimants. Now, wouldn't you imagine that for a claimant to be able to go forward, she should have to prove that she is entitled to work in the Unitied States like everyone else is supposed to? Despite the logic in that premise, I am not allowed to ask that either by way of interrogatory or in a deposition...due to IRCA and the EEOC's enforcement of it and Title VII. That was something the phuking Democrats put in the law in the 60s (Title VII) and 80s (IRCA). http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-nator.html

It is frustrating to read media bullsh!t, political sound bites and unadulturated uninformed internet expert opinions when folks simply don't take the time to read and understand what the real issues are. All folks see are Mexicans hanging around in emergency rooms and taking jobs and then they blame employers...but fail to see that it is because of the liberal kocksucking POS scum sucking pricks (Democrats, unions, plaintiffs attorneys and their fellow travelers) who want to protect every assinine ACLU-generated argument for protecting unimagined and non-existant "civil rights" for every sh!thead that ought to get the phuk off this planet, that we have the problem we do...

...but that's just my opinon after living with this crap in the real world for nearly 30 years. I'm sure others here have much more experience and can offer up much better advice from another country or from working on computer programs.

We can't even process passport renewals fast enough so that folks traveling to phuking Canada and Mexico have to present them to come back in, despite Homeland Security giving notice two phuking years ago, and yet it is suggested that everyone carry them around in their phuking back pocket? Wouldn't a little SS card with a pic be a little easier to carry?

Personally...I prefer some digits on the wrist, but some Austrian muthaphuka gave that concept a bad name some years ago.

Rest assured that this post will be followed with posts from folks who will suggest some wonderful armchair solution grabbed out of their arse, or some rant about arresting 12 million folks and marching them across the border when it would be more beneficial to our economic welfare to hook up every trailer and pull those generally toothless married cousins north into Canada and to reflood New Orleans and have a few of those folks float towards that seemingly immortal cigar chomping prick's island splender...but the Great Chairman tried moving around millions to make his little corner of the world a utopia of efficiency and everyone got pissed off, due in no small part to his b!tch of a wife and her sixpack of watered down tea drinkers trying to make a few bucks. In other words, I cannot hold oxygen in my massive chest long enough to see folks' heads pop out of their arses and see the light.

...just my humble opinion, of course, and your mileage may vary.

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by Jamo

It is frustrating to read media bullsh!t, political sound bites and unadulturated uninformed internet expert opinions when folks simply don't take the time to read and understand what the real issues are. All folks see are Mexicans hanging around in emergency rooms and taking jobs and then they blame employers...but fail to see that it is because of the liberal kocksucking POS scum sucking pricks (Democrats, unions, plaintiffs attorneys and their fellow travelers) who want to protect every assinine ACLU-generated argument for protecting unimagined and non-existant "civil rights" for every sh!thead that ought to get the phuk off this planet, that we have the problem we do...

Hey Jamo, why don't you tell us how you really feel about this?

While I certainly don't understand all of what is invloved in this, the solution of putting a photo on a SS card certainly seems to be easy and make sense, maybe too much sense for the government to adopt.

Wayne

[petek]

Ron, I always get a kick out of your writing when you get wound up; obvious skill developed over 30+ years of successful arguments. Suffice to say I would hate to be in court on the other side when you've got a full head of steam!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by petek

Ron, ... you've got a full head of steam!

Steam is just hot air...

Jamo,
Putting a photo on an SS card will give you similar problems as with drivers licences and the like. They are all forgeable. There are certainly things, as you mention, that make forging more difficult/expensive, and will progressively limit the ease and availability of passable fakes. Those are good ideas and should be implemented. Even though there are still ways to get around a photo SS card we should still do it for exactly the reasons that both of us have described.
Having a biometric as part of that ID package would make it even tougher still as it does not rely on something that can be forged with any degree of ease. I know that many on the left don't want to do this, but I would rather fix the problem than coddle them. But I find it interesting that you complain about how bad those evil libs are when your precious 'my poo don't stink' GOP has done nothing about this for the last 7 years. Even before that - it could have been an interesting voter issue if Clinton had vetoed a bill doing exactly what you want. A pity we never got to find out.

I don't disagree with you regarding your discrimination case. Your position on it makes absolute sense as far as I am concerned. However, when you get right down to it - you really only have other lawyers to blame. Its laws like the ones you describe that often give all lawyers a bad name.

And as far as carrying passports around I do not carry mine on a daily basis. I also do not carry my SS card around. Do you? The passport thing is happening because people always wait until the last minute, and most people are not even aware of the changes regarding ID to visit our friends to the north and south. So when everyone submits their application or renewal and they ALL have to have it within 30 days - what do you think is going to happen? If you required a new photo SS card by date x then the exact same thing would happen, only it would be on an even bigger scale as it would not affect just the people who want to sample the homegrown Molson and tequila.

Now, on to network security. Go read some of the GAO reports on information security in our government. You should be smart enough to understand that just because the SSA DB has not been hacked (that we know of) does not mean that it will not be. Most large companies have restricted access to things like personnel files and government access. That would not always be the case with a lettuce grower who writes his SSA login info on a sticky attached to the side of his monitor. The individual PC is also more likely to be virus infected. Do you really want a zombie (other than the ones currently employed there) running around in the SSA system?

But thats just my personal opinion after having spent my entire professional life (save 8 months) working to try and make voice and data systems as bulletproof as possible, though I'm sure we could always get advice on secure networks from a lawyer who can't tell the difference between a packet sniffer and a panty sniffer.

Steve