Cyclists

[Wayne Maybury]

I don't know about where you live, but up here I have never seen a cyclist ever obey any rules of the road. They never stop at stop signs or red lights unless they are going to get mowed down by the cars. Normally they just breeze right through like the signs aren't there. They drive on either side of the road, the wrong way on one-way streets, on side walks, etc. Then they get pissed when a driver opens the door on his parked car just as they are about to go flying by.

Wayne

[Al Bockman]

Not so fast,Glyn. Not everybody here agrees with you.

Why doesn't everybody just take a deep breath and calm down?

I have 28,000 miles on my Cobra and 21,000 on my road bike. I have encountered my share of "the road belongs to me" crowd. I'll address some of these issues one by one.

"Trespassers in the motorcars domain, they do not pay road tax and therefore have no right to be on the road, some of them even believe they are going fast enough to not be an obstruction. Run them down to prove them wrong."

No need to kill anybody. How could you advocate that? Feeling invincible in your vehicle? Contrary to what you may think, I do pay road taxes. I pay every time I buy gasoline.

"Now, I have to agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, especially here in "Lance Armstrong's town". These people are EVERYWHERE in their yellow spandex outfits, fingerless gloves, goofy looking helmets, poofy little shoes, cluttering up the road, slowing down traffic and generally poluting the environment for us long suffereing motorists. I am preparing a short brief for the Mayor of Austin, and eventually the Governor of Texas to propose the following..."

No need to make fun of the clothing and equipment worn by cyclists. Just the proper attire for the activity, much like driving shoes, driving suits and helmets for a track day in the Cobra. I don't quite understand how cyclists "polute" the environment, though.

"1) All cyclists must pay a $50 per year road tax before they are allowed on ANY roads
2) They must pay to have their bicycles 'inspected' once a year at specially designated "CIP" locations (Cycle Inspection Posts). $10 inspection fee
3) They must get insurance before they are allowed on the roads. Insurance will vary depending on the age and experience and cycling record of said cyclist. Minimum annual charge of $100
4) They must buy a specially engineered bracket ($15) to display their inspection stickers and their road tax licenses"

If cyclists do all of that and can then ride ANYWHERE on ANY road, would you quit complaining? I doubt it.

"Just think of the increased tax revenue which would perhaps a) help pay for better roads and b) reduce the road fees WE innocent motorists have to pay.

The insurance companies would get more revenues (like they NEED that????) and perhaps reduce the insurance costs of us innocent motorists."

Innocent of what, "running them down?"

"We could increase employment with all the mindless bureaucrats needed to enforce the new regulations.

I see this as a complete win-win situation here...either that, or cyclists should be declared 'fair game', and we should be permitted to at least 'clip' them with a front fender on passing, just to serve them right!"

How long have you been a sociopath?

"Why is it that they don't at least have to pay road tax...they USE the roads don't they????"

How about pedestrians? Don't they use the road whenever they cross the street? How much are you willing to pay to display your "Walk on the Pavement " license, and where are you going to display YOUR stickers? Should pedestrians pay extra insurance, too?

" "

The smiley doesn't mask your resentment.

"Glyn"

Everybody pays a lot of tax money for things from which they get no benefit. Do all of you guys complain about that, too?

The guy who assaulted the cyclist and threw his bike off the cliff doesn't deserve cheers and applause, he deserves a stretch in San Quentin.

As far as the complaints about cyclists breaking traffic laws, has anybody here ever broken a traffic law? If so, pot, kettle, black. I obey the laws as much as anybody else. When I ride in the country and see cars rolling through stop signs at 20 MPH, should I feel guilty about rolling through at 10? Maybe you guys would be happier if we all bought combines and drove slowly. Or motorhomes! I'd bet you're not happy about a fully licensed and insured motorhome using "your" road, either. Best solution - buy your own road and keep everybody off of it. If you don't have the money, you'll just have to share. Sorry...

Wayne, NEVER? You just said they don't stop unless they are going to be mowed down. That shoots your "never" argument down, doesn't it? Having a car door open in your path can be a very dangerous situation, but you don't think about that in your car, though. How about if somebody opened their door when you're passing in your Cobra? Would that be okay? How about if you were on a motorcycle?

I wish I could say I was surprised about all the violent, foaming-at-the-mouth comments here, but I'm not.

Lighten up and please give the cyclists some room. It takes bigger cojones to get passed by a semi doing 60 mph only 2 feet from your elbow than anything you'll probably ever do.

Al

[Wayne Maybury]

Al

Maybe I didn't explain what I meant clearly. I can't speak for people in other towns but in the area of greater Montreal, cyclists virtually never stop at a stop sign or red light unless they can't cross due to on-coming (cross) traffic. I think that this is a clear statement.

I just saw (not more than 10 minutes ago) 3 teenagers going the wrong way (driving on the left side) of a divided secondary highway. They blew right through a red light jumped onto the left hand sidewalk and blew through another red light narrowly missing a car that was making a legal left hand turn. The driver never saw the kids as they were still on the wrong side of the road AND GOING THROUGH A RED LIGHT. Surely you cannot condone this behavior.

I didn't state that anyone should be shot or killed or anything else, I just stated that I am fed up with the reckless behavior of the vast majority of cyclists around where I live. As far as the car door thing goes, many times the cyclists are going the wrong way on a one way street, are driving on the wrong side of the road, or are weaving through traffic so the motorist has no idea that he may be opening his/her door when a cyclist is near by. I don't think that many people will purposely open their car door in front of a cyclist just for the fun of it.

I think that bicycles are a great form of transportation but I would like the cyclists to understand that the rules of the road apply to them as well as motor vehicles.

Wayne

[Ron61]

Al,

I don't resent cyclists, just the way they do here. And here they pay no type of fees, have no inspections, and ride all over the roads. In fact I stopped completely one day in the main street because a dam cyclist was coming up the middle of my lane right at me. Cars behind me almost rear ended me and the cyclist ran into my front bumper so hard he bent the forks on the bicycle. I would gladly have thrown him and his bicycle off a cliff. And I have yet to see one of them riding in the bicycle lane along the Boulevard here. And I don't care what they pay if they pay at all, they have no business on any freeway. Quote "If cyclists do all of that and can then ride ANYWHERE on ANY road, would you quit complaining?" He might but I won't and I ride a bicycle but not on busy streets and I stay as far away from cars as I can. And they do string out across both lanes of the road and won't move unless a patrol car comes by. If you think I have a thing in for cyclists you are correct. Those A** Hole* give the ones that do obey the law a bad name and they get lumped in with the jerks. You must live in a one of a kind place if they never do any of the things mentioned in the prior posts.

Ron

[Al Bockman]

First off, let me apologize for the way my response was put together. Some of you thought my wrath was directed at you when it wasn't.

All of the activities described that are illegal are up to the police to handle. Rest assured that somebody, somewhere has probably said something about the "vast majority" (what percentage does it take to constitute a "vast majority", anyway?) of Cobras (insert traffic offense here), too.

Wayne: I don't condone anybody doing what you described. In Colorado a cyclist has the same rights an reponsibilities as a motorist, including obeying traffic laws. I know people who have received tickets because they broke the law. Nothing wrong with that. I also see a lot of automobiles break the law (myself included). That's what the cops are for. Don't lump all cyclists in together. The one or two idiots doing something to p*ss you off are the ones you're going to remember, not the cyclists behaving themselves. What some cyclists do in urban areas scares the h*ll out me, too.

Have I ever ran a red light on by bicycle? Only when nobody was around and I knew the paltry amount of steel (axles, bottom bracket and fasteners) on my bike wouldn't trip the magnetic loop so the light would change. Am I supposed to sit there for ten minutes waiting for a car to show up going the same direction? I have no desire to get creamed by a car and ride accordingly.

Ron: The fees remark was more directed to the esteemed Texan who was going to write the letter to the mayor and governor. In Colorado, we don't pay fees, either. My point about the "any road" was that his argument that cyclists DON"T pay could open up a whole new can of worms if they did pay. Other than interstate highways, which they keep us off now, how could they keep us off? We've paid our fees! Now we're entitled to be there, just like cars!

If I had my $4,000 road bike stolen, think the police would have any interest in looking for it? Why not? They look for stolen cars! What's the difference? I paid my fees!

I've heard the fee argument before. He should be careful what he asks for. He may get it.

We also have bike paths here. Cyclists complain about the roller bladers, skateboarders, joggers, baby strollers, and just-walking-along-with-their-heads-up-their-a$$ types on the bike paths just like motorists complain about bikes on the roads. Another problem with bike paths is that they don't always go where you want to go.

We have our share of A** Hole* here, too. What doesn't help is people thinking they should enforce their own brand of justice to cyclists. But, seriously, how would you feel if you did run over a cyclist? What if the legal system decided you were at fault? Ready to have your life changed that much, just because he was "infringing" on your turf?

Oh yeah, and to all the hot-heads that posted to this thread threatening violence towards cyclists, if you ever do assault or run over a cyclist, be sure and show this thread to the judge at your sentencing hearing. He'd probably love to read it.

Al

[Wayne Maybury]

Al

It looks like this thread has struck a nerve with you. Sorry about that and I certainly would not hurt any of them no matter how they bug me. I think that you would be amazed at how people ride bikes up here. It seems that kids as young as 5 or 6 years old have learned that they do not have to obey any traffic rules.

I travel a lot throughout Canada and the US on business and I am amazed at how the majority of cyclists in other major cities actually stop for red lights (note that I haven't been to NYC or LA lately ). It simply does not happen here unless the cyclist cannot get through without getting run down. I repeat that up here, virtually all cyclists run right through red lights with the worst being bicycle courriers and those packs of guys that seem to think that they are training for the Tour de France.

Wayne

[Sharroll Celby]

Yes, the bicyclist have the right to be on the road, BUT I dont think they should be impeding traffic on narrow, two-lane roads by riding WAY slower than the speed limit. I also think that bicyclists should PULL OVER and let faster traffic pass them.

[427sharpe]

From the TxDOT handbook:

Drivers should always be prepared to yield the right-of-way to bicyclists. Bicyclists often disregard the rules of the road. Over 70 percent of collisions between motor vehicles and bicyclists are the bicyclists' fault.

[bomelia]

don't need two copies

[bomelia]

Aw come on Al. Keep on postin... your count is coming up.

Da lounge is a very dangerous place.

BTW, who said "panties in a wad?". The WOULD piss ME off! I wear a thong.

Mike

[Al Bockman]

I'm back! Did you miss me? While my post count was climbing my living life count was receding. Like Pink Floyd said, "shorter of breath, and one day closer to death." So, I went for a bike ride yesterday. Wanna know how I did?

Distance: 42.06 miles

Average Speed: 2.301 MPH (F-250, eat my dust!! What did the snail say when he rode on the turtle's back? Wheeeee!)

Weight lost: 4 pounds on the ride (mostly water), 0.6 lbs actual (If I was heavy enough to begin with I could lose enough weight riding my bicycle to make up the difference between a big block and a small block!)

Traffic laws broken: Rolled through a couple of deserted 4-way stop signs in a residential area, but did stop and wait patiently for two red lights.
39.8 in a 35 zone, 38 in a 35, 26 in a 15 (in my neighborhood where NOBODY does 15)

Cyclists encountered: 4

Cyslists breaking law when encountered: 0 (Now the next 196 are going to have to be doing something illegal to match the Shasta Lake PD statistics)

Motorists breaking laws: Couldn't keep track

Unhappy motorists: Most of them looked unhappy. People just don't seem to be enjoying life as much as they used to.

Number of motorists I made angry: None, that I know of. At least I wasn't honked at, run over or off the road, nothing was thrown at me and nothing was jammed into my spokes or up my a$$ so I must have been doing okay by them.

I even made it home in time to mow the lawn before it started raining. So, all in all, I had a pretty good day.

Now, back to business! That statistic from the Texas DMV about 70% of accidents being caused by cyclists is pretty disconcerting. If you guys would stop hitting them, running them off the road, etc. maybe the cyclists could get that stat up to 100%!

Did it mention that 100% of accidents between cars are caused by motorists? Maybe we should start looking at getting motorists off the road. They sure are causing a lot of accidents! Statistics can be strage at times. I don't recall the exact number they bandy about around here, but for the sake of argument we say that 30% of fatal accidents are caused by drunk drivers. That would mean that 70% of fatal accidents are caused by sober motorists. Drunk drivers must be safer, at least statistically.

Maybe the Texas manual should say that a lot of motorists often disregard the rules of the road. There's probably a lot of that going on, too. It sounds like Walker, Texas Ranger should get away from the donut shop and start enforcing some traffic laws!

Look, if I had a magic wand I could wave to make everybody play nice, obey the law and get along peacefully with everybody else, I would wave it! I've offered some advice on things we can and should do to coexist on the roadways. Do any of you have any ideas? (Short of banning cyclists)

Oh, yeah, and since this thread has drifted into "tossing salads", all I can say about that is if you find somebody willing to do it for you, give it a try!

Al

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Al Bockman

"

It takes bigger cojones to get passed by a semi doing 60 mph only 2 feet from your elbow than anything you'll probably ever do.
Al

Really?Try hanging off a box car at 0200hrs 150 miles from any city and have a 8000 ft,6000 ton freight train go by 10 feet from you at 75mph,makes your ride seem like your were sitting in your living room.

This is verbatim form the Az.traffic law manual:

A.a person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then exisiting shall ride AS CLOSE AS PRACTIBLE to the right-hand curb or edge of roadway.

4B-Persons riding bicyles on a roadway shall NOT RIDE MORE THAN 2 ABREAST except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use by bicycles.

Obviously,you pedal-yer-ass types don't follow the rules.So what's your solution-AL?

Bicyclists are one of the reason i installed locomotive horns on my truck.Turns them pretty "yellow spandex shorts"brown.

[427sharpe]

Originally Posted by Al Bockman
"

It takes bigger cojones to get passed by a semi doing 60 mph only 2 feet from your elbow than anything you'll probably ever do.
Al

Al;
Have you ever been targeted by a SAM while flying over hostile air space thousands of miles from home? Ever landed on a carrier at night in black out battle conditions? I stand by my observations. Here in DFW we have built numerous paths and lanes FOR bicycles that are ignored while bikes ride down the street. Often BETWEEN lanes of stopped or slow cars, illegal turns against traffic and so on. It doesn't take 'cajones' to have a semi go by at 60 at your elbow. It takes stupidity. It also takes stupidity to ride in a pack fanned out over roads covered in blind turns with a 40-50 MPH speed limit seemingly oblivious to the danger wrought by a mass of steel running in the opposite direction. Climb off the soap box and get on the bike trail.

[Ron61]

Al,

Thank you for trying to explain your post and I know what you mean. But I stand by my statements regarding 98% of the cyclists around here. You said the bicycle lanes don't go where the cyclists want to go. These go right along side the streets and cars are not allowed in them except when turning. And I have never seen a bicycle in them in the two years since they were built. They still insist on riding two to six deep in the center of the road. Since the lanes are along side the street, where could these idiots want to go that the lane doesn't? I try to stay as far away from traffic as possible and if I do have to ride on a street where there is no shoulder I get as far over to the edge as I can and try to listen for traffic so I can be ready to let them by. They even built a combination skateboard/bicycle area with concrete jumps and the whole works here a few years ago as they were complaining they had no place to practice. After ruining a big piece of the local park and wasting millions, the bicyclists still haul plywood and steel steel stands out in the streets and parking lots to do their so called practicing and I hardly ever see one of them at the place they all cried to have built. I do see the skateboarders using their part a lot.

Ron

[Al Bockman]

I apologize if I gave anybody the impression that I condone what these idiots are doing. I do NOT! Their actions, as can be seen from this thread, give some motorists homicidal thoughts. I have no interest in becoming a statistic.

Here goes... pick the response you feel is directed at you and let 'er rip! If they're not in order, please forgive me.

Maybe education would help the problem. Cyclists need to know that they have to obey the rules of the road and motorists need to know that cyclists have a right to be on the road. If 5 and 6 year old kids are creating problems, maybe the parents should teach them. Have you ever told the kids what they are doing is wrong and instructed them on the right way? I have. Now, couriers, those guys ARE crazy! Beyond redemption. If they had the money they would probably drive Cobras!

Glyn, I appreciate British humor, much to my wife's chagrin. Threatening bodily harm just ain't funny, especially when I could be at the receiving end.

When I made the comment about cojones I said "probably". I don't need to hear every personal feat of derring-do you've done to prove you have more guts than I do. Just try it. Stand on the shoulder with your back to the traffic and give it a whirl!

I'm sure the freight train incident was scary. The difference is that you were 10 feet away and the train is on tracks. That train isn't going to jump out and hit you. One twitch of the steering wheel by that semi and I'm under the wheels. When you let loose with the horn hope that the cyclist is by himself. I'm sure with witnesses your horn honking could get you in trouble if you caused a crash. Now all you need is a big dog in the back of your truck barking.

Thank you for taking the trouble to look up the statutes regarding traffic laws. Do they have any about obeying the speed limit, too? My point is we all bend or break traffic laws occasionally, and that is what the police force is there for. If some vigilante gets upset by being passed by a group of Cobras doing 100 mph, does he have the right to do physical harm to the cars and/or drivers if he catches them?

Obviously, a lot of motorists don't follow the rules either. What's your solution? Mine is to enforce the traffic laws, whether for cyclists or motorists. Not run people off the road. Is your locomotive horn on a diesel pickup by any chance? It's always helpful to lug the engine then floor it to give them a good blast of black smoke when you pass a cyclist, too. It may not demonstrate the size of your cojones, but it does demonstrate the size of their next door neighbor.

Stupidity? The semi driver or the cyclist? I could imagine a SAM would be a scary situation, but just like I volunteered to be on the road with my bike, you probably volunteered to be shot at by missiles and land on aircraft carriers. Some could say you put yourself in that situation ,too. Cojones or ? You knew the hazards when you signed up. Recreational pursuits and military service are apples and oranges, don't you think?

Oh, and I have a right to be on the road. I think I'll exercise it, thank you very much.

BMX riders setting up ramps in the street is an entirely different issue. Hey, I get upset at all the Michael Jordan wannabees with their hoops all over the sidewalk. Should I run over them if they play basketball in the street?

I hate to get behind slow traffic, too. There are laws for that, too. In Colorado you are supposed to pull over if five vehicles are jammed up behind you. Think anybody does? No. How are we going to keep those motorhomes off the road! They are in my way! Oh, that's right. They have a right to be there. But you have to admit, it's easier to pass a cyclist than a motorhome.

I doubt if 98% of any group does anything. Where did you get that number?

Cyclists ride for the same reason you drive your Cobras, hunt, fish, chase women or any other recreational pursuit. Love of the sport. They do have a right to be on the road. You have to share. That's life.

I do not condone breaking traffic laws by cyclists or motorists. I don't ride in big groups. I stay as far right as possible, but keep in mind that I get a much more intimate view of what's on the road, and the closer to the shoulder, the more broken bottles, loose gravel and other hazards there are, all creating potential problems.

And before anybody says anything about doping in the Tour de France (probably the first time that's been brought up on CC), let's put the NBA, NFL and MLB players through the same drug-testing standards. Now, what are we going to do on Sunday afternoons? Run over cyclists, I guess.

I'll be out on the bike this afternoon, riding about 40 miles. Please don't kill me for it.

Al

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Ron61]

Al,

After your initial post and based on what I see the cyclists doing around here, I went over to our police station and talked to them about the problem and they are the ones that gave me the 98% figure that don't obey the law and none of the cyclists here have any type of inspections or are required to get a license of any kind. If you don't like that figure, take it up with the local police as they are the ones scraping these fools off cars, trucks, and in one case each other as two of the were going to jump the railroad from opposite sides and hit head on in mid air and then fell down the embankment. One of them almost died and will never be the same and the other will always have a limp. For the most part we do get along but you give the impression that cyclists have all the rights of motorists and like it or not, here they don't. They are not supposed to even be on the freeway. At least my neighbor up the street is bringing his kids along correctly. They have to wear helmets and stay out of the center of the road or he will ground them for a week. And if they want to jump, they have to go to the place the city built which is a whole five blocks from here. I have been caught behind slow traffic also, but I have yet to see motor homes line up side by side and block both lanes of a highway that is 4 lanes wide.

Ron