Its not a war with Islam, or is it?

[bomelia]

Meanwhile, Al Qaeda released a new video eulogy Sunday of its top Afghanistan strategist on militant Web sites. The video marks the second for Abu Laith al-Libi, showing the slain commander's importance to Al Qaeda.

"Nation of Islam, we pay tribute today to a courageous hero of Islam, an unmatched commander, one of Islam's greatest," eulogized fellow Al Qaeda militant Abu Yahya al-Libi, appearing in front of an image of Abu Laith's battered corpse.

Abu Laith was viewed as a top Al Qaeda strategist in Afghanistan and was one of its highest-profile figures after Usama bin Laden and al Zawahri. He was killed in late January by a missile from a U.S. Predator drone that struck his safe house in Pakistan. (rest of article)

We are not allowed to say (PCedness) that this is a war against Islam, but the Muslim extremists can. Two faced PC BS.

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by bomelia

Meanwhile, Al Qaeda released a new video eulogy Sunday of its top Afghanistan strategist on militant Web sites. The video marks the second for Abu Laith al-Libi, showing the slain commander's importance to Al Qaeda.

"Nation of Islam, we pay tribute today to a courageous hero of Islam, an unmatched commander, one of Islam's greatest," eulogized fellow Al Qaeda militant Abu Yahya al-Libi, appearing in front of an image of Abu Laith's battered corpse.

Abu Laith was viewed as a top Al Qaeda strategist in Afghanistan and was one of its highest-profile figures after Usama bin Laden and al Zawahri. He was killed in late January by a missile from a U.S. Predator drone that struck his safe house in Pakistan. (rest of article)

We are not allowed to say (PCedness) that this is a war against Islam, but the Muslim extremists can. Two faced PC BS.

Mike

I imagine Timothy McVeigh was a Christian hero in some twisted circles. So, in the eyes of some, bringing in the FBI to neutralize he and his kind could be seen as an unjust war against innocent Christians foisted by the evil US government.

But the violence prone McVeigh, and his ilk, simply doesn't represent the position of any decent Christians that I know. And Al Qaeda doesn't represent most of Islam, either. So we are simply at war with militant Al Qaeda, not peaceful Islam.

Fox stirring the pot? Sounds more like they are saying many militants are getting sick of the violence. A good thing.


...

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

. So we are simply at war with militant Al Qaeda, not peaceful Islam.

Fox stirring the pot? Sounds more like they are saying many militants are getting sick of the violence. A good thing.
...

NO, its ME stirring the pot. And, how many peacful muslims do you know (personally)? Yes, I understand the difference. But just how many "peaceful" Muslims do you see (or hear) rising in indignation against this sentiment? They are too busy trying to stone teachers for helping students do their homework, or protesting "pictures" of Mohammed, etc. BS all the way to the bank. If "peaceful" Muslims gave one little dam about any of this, we'd hear from them... the cameras are rolling. Hello????

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by bomelia

NO, its ME stirring.... ....But just how many "peaceful" Muslims do you see (or hear) rising in indignation against this sentiment?.... ....If "peaceful" Muslims gave one little dam about any of this, we'd hear from them... the cameras are rolling. Hello????

Mike

That's just it. Peaceful members of religions don't "rise in indignation" to much degree. There have been statements by ordinary Muslim leaders that they don't agree with Al Qaeda violence but it doesn't make big news. Of course every religion feels it is the best and only true belief. I wish Fox would take a more balanced positive upbeat on this. There is enough hate in religion already. I imagine some twisted Christians jumped up and down over Oklahoma too. I think it's a little soon to forget that hard lesson.

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Both McVeigh and Nichols had connections to Ramzi Josef in the Philippines.

Roscoe

( Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

There are actual ties showing the Bush family as friends with the Bin Ladens and even ties to the Nazi regime back in WWII. But I kind of doubt whether the ties are relevant to subsequent violent events.

But there will always be conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, sometimes they are true.


...

[4RE KLR]

Originally Posted by bomelia

NO, its ME stirring the pot. And, how many peacful muslims do you know (personally)? Yes, I understand the difference. But just how many "peaceful" Muslims do you see (or hear) rising in indignation against this sentiment? They are too busy trying to stone teachers for helping students do their homework, or protesting "pictures" of Mohammed, etc. BS all the way to the bank. If "peaceful" Muslims gave one little dam about any of this, we'd hear from them... the cameras are rolling. Hello????

Mike

Hell yes, Well put Mike!

[Ronbo]

Bad thing about moderates is that they rarely rise to power in the muslem countries. Sadat comes to mind, but few others.

I honestly don't want to be right about a coming conflict, but I see the same fanatic behavior that was witnessed in WWII and southeast asia.

I know of no religion that teaches tolerance of other religious beliefs.

[Roscoe]

1993-1995

This story begins with an evil genius named Ramzi Yousef or "Rashid the Iraqi," his nom de guerre when he comes to Jersey City in 1993. He arrives on an Iraqi passport to show the aspiring local Islamic terrorists how to build a truck bomb. His target is the World Trade Center. His goal is to kill 250,000 people when one of the twin towers topples into the other, and the bomb discharges its cyanide gas.

Fortunately, the cyanide evaporates in the blast, and the towers hold. A disappointed Yousef boards a plane that afternoon and heads back to the Middle East. His accomplice, Abdul Rahman Yasin, takes off for Baghdad where he lives under Saddam's protection for the next 10 years.

In November 1994, in a time of relative peace and prosperity, the Democrats lose a shocking 53 seats in House, eight in the Senate, and control of both. The blame falls on the Clintons' doorstep. The loss sets the president and Hillary Clinton on a quest to retain the White House so desperate that they will knowingly sacrifice national security to advance their own cause. If this means tailoring investigations into likely terrorist acts to first fit their political needs, so be it.

That same November, Yousef applies for a visa to the Philippines. On the next day, Terry Nichols of Oklahoma City fame receives a visa for the Philippines.

On the way to the airport two weeks later, Nichols unnerves his ex-wife, Lana, when he hands her a sealed package and tells her, "If I'm not back in 60 days, open it and follow the instructions." Curious, Lana opens the package only to find a will, Nichol's life insurance policy, and instructions that lead her to $20,000 in cash.

Two weeks after Nichols' arrival, Ramzi Yousef boards a Philippines Airline flight in Manila and plants a small practice bomb. The bomb kills the Japanese tourist who takes his seat after Yousef had disembarked in ? of all places ? Cebu City ... the city where Terry Nichols was staying.

A month later, January 1995, Yousef has to flee his Manila apartment after setting it on fire while building bombs. When his roommate ? a Pakistani pilot, Abdul Hakim Murad ? returns to the apartment to retrieve Yousef's laptop, he's arrested.

Under intense questioning, Murad reveals Yousef's Bojinka plot, a plan to blow up a dozen American airliners over the Pacific. He also reveals a post-Bojinka plan to hijack commercial airliners or use small planes filled with explosives to attack specific American targets, the pilots for which are in training at American flight schools. The Philippine police even make a flow chart connecting many of the key players together, including Osama bin Laden, Ramzi Yousef and 9-11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. Philippine authorities turn over all of this information to U.S. authorities by early 1995.

The authorities nab Yousef in Pakistan a few weeks later.

As to Terry Nichols, he beats it back to the United States. When Lana asks him why he had come back so soon, he tells her cryptically, "Somebody could get killed down there."

In "Against All Enemies," the much-celebrated Richard Clarke has this to say about the visits of these two terrorists to the same city in the same country at the same time: "We do know that Nichols' bombs did not work before his Philippine stay," writes Clarke, "and were deadly when he returned."

April 16-18, 1995

After his conviction, Timothy McVeigh told his story to two reporters from his hometown Buffalo News, Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, and they in turn retold it in a useful book published in 2001 called "American Terrorist."

The McVeigh that one meets in "American Terrorist" is a powerful and crafty fellow. He somehow teaches himself how to build a massive truck bomb and is even prepared to assemble the 7,000-pound monster himself.

As McVeigh tells it, Terry Nichols shows up at his Kansas storage facility when he's half way through the loading process and then only because he's afraid of what McVeigh will do to his family if he does not. The pair then drive to a nearby lake and spend the next three hours mixing 13 500-pound barrels of explosives.

A Washington Post article from a week after the blast ? when the truth is still being shared and reported ? suggests the improbability of this story:

Law enforcement sources said the 4,800-pound bomb that caused the explosion probably required at least two to three people to construct and considerable patience and planning. Building such a device would be extremely labor-intensive.

The bomb proved to be half again bigger than that, but for McVeigh, it was all in a morning's work ? at least according to McVeigh and, alas, the prosecutors. After mixing the bomb, McVeigh allegedly drives alone toward Oklahoma in the loaded truck, crosses the Oklahoma border, and stops for the night at a small gravel lot near an anonymous "roadside motel." By his own timeline, however, McVeigh would have reached this motel about 2 p.m. This makes for a long and pointless night.

April 19, 1995

The next morning, April 19, as he tells it, McVeigh drives into Oklahoma City alone, sees no one, and no one sees him. He lights the fuses and then parks the Ryder truck in front of the Murrah building. He then grabs the thick packet of anti-government materials he brought with him, jumps out of the truck, and walks and runs with packet in hand to his yellow Mercury Marquis parked nearby.

In her stunning book, "The Third Terrorist," Jayna Davis documents beyond all doubt that McVeigh is telling only half the story. As Davis argues, McVeigh and Nichols had help from Islamic terrorists, not only in the Philippines, but also in Oklahoma City. In her role as a reporter for KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City, Davis interviewed more than 20 reliable eyewitnesses who identified the crew of Iraqi nationals who had helped McVeigh assemble and deliver the bomb.

Twenty minutes before the blast in downtown Oklahoma City, employees at a tire store spot McVeigh and a short Middle Eastern-looking man, in the Ryder truck, and even give the pair directions to the Murrah building intersection.

Another eyewitness, Daina Bradley, cries out to the rescuers who are trying to extricate her after the blast ? and they have to amputate her leg to do so, "It was a Ryder truck. It pulled up, a foreign looking man got out, and then before long, everything went black."

The FBI traces the truck's vehicle identification number to Eldon Elliot's body shop in Junction City, Kan., where the Ryder truck was rented. There, several witnesses tell the agents that McVeigh came in with a short, swarthy guy. This is where the search for John Doe No. 2 begins in earnest.

Jayna Davis also identifies and interviews numerous eyewitnesses at the Cactus Motel in Oklahoma City who see ? and smell ? the Ryder Truck on the night of the 18th. On the morning of the 19th, these witnesses watch as the yellow Mercury Marquis and a brown late-model pickup leave the motel with the Ryder truck in a convoy of three vehicles.

Five minutes before the blast, printing operator Jerry Nance notices an unusual car in the downtown Oklahoma City parking lot near where he works. It's a dilapidated yellow Mercury Marquis. Behind the wheel is a dark-skinned, Middle Eastern-looking man in a ball cap.

Nance remembers the car well. When he walks back toward it, after he gets some stuff from his own car, the Mercury Marquis almost runs him over. Now, however, the Middle Eastern man sits in the passenger seat, and a tall white man is driving the car out of the parking lot, recklessly at that.

Two minutes later, the Murrah building blows. Nance informs the FBI of this incident before anyone knows McVeigh has been apprehended in a yellow Mercury Marquis.

Three hours after the blast, the FBI issues an all-points bulletin for a brown Chevy pickup, with tinted windows, seen speeding away from the area, with two Middle Eastern-looking men inside.

A week later, the FBI quotes Nance and the tire store employees in its request before a federal judge to hold McVeigh over for trial. One of the tire store employees picks McVeigh out of a line-up of look-alikes even before he sees McVeigh on television. The Washington Post of April 28 confirms the same:

The magistrate, Ronald L. Howland, ordered McVeigh to be held without bail after listening to four hours of testimony from FBI Special Agent John Hersley in which he described eyewitness accounts of a yellow Mercury with McVeigh and another man inside speeding away from a parking lot near the federal building.

[Ronbo]

Basically you need to view it this way, The US and many christian nations migrated away from monarchies over the last 200 years. England obviously still has the royal family but they're basically a stage show now.

Most of the middle east is still under rule of kings as well as primarily muslium countries in the African continent.

In the US the rising hispanic population (mainly Catholic) is at least helping offset the rising numbers of African Americans rediscovering their "roots" and converting to Islam.

Funny thing is this whole thing stems back to the displacement of the original "tribes". Our "Old testiment" is also the fist part of the Koran.

Christians got Jesus in part II, Islam got Allah.

Some may view it differently, especially moderate Christians and Musliums but there's a slim chance that humans will let go of belief in gods anytime soon. I see them (religions) as nothing more than the earliest governments with incredible staying power.

[Cobrabill]

WWIII will be against the muslims.And this is the beginning.And one of the reasons we will NEVER leave Iraq.

[427 S/O]

Mike, I agree with you. One incident I remember that keeps all of them on the suspicious list...After the second plane hit, two Americans reported they saw 4 or 5 muslims exit a van and were jumping up and down, clapping their hands in cheer.

[Roscoe]

Both McVeigh and Nichols had connections to Ramzi Josef in the Philippines.

Roscoe

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Both McVeigh and Nichols had connections to Ramzi Josef in the Philippines.

Roscoe

Post the links!

Mike

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by bomelia

...
We are not allowed to say (PCedness) that this is a war against Islam, but the Muslim extremists can. Two faced PC BS.

Mike

Well, I'm sure those extremists like to call it a war against Islam. They like to call Americans the Great Satan too. This PCedness prevents us from coming right out and saying that Mike, me and the rest of us Americans are in league with the devil. On the other hand, maybe we should not be just accepting their propaganda.

[imagine2frolic]

I remember a saying when I just a little kid.....THE TRUTH HURTS DON'T IT?.... Obviously they will feel so much pain hearing this. This man will have a price put on his head. I guess Islam has forgotten, or never gotten over the crusades?

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

1993-1995

This story begins....

Roscoe,

I have to admit that is pretty interesting reading. You must have gone to some effort to either personally condense the info down, or at least find a good passage to pass on to us.

There is an awful lot of info out there, and you made me look at quite a bit, but I never even scratched the surface. The FBI's intense investigation alone consisted of over two million man hours along with tens of thousands of other man hours from local authorities. See a brief Grand Jury Report: ( http://www.oklahomacounty.org/GrandJuryReport.htm )

I agree anything is possible but most of the circumstancial evidence points to McVeigh and Nichols acting alone to avenge the anniversary of Waco although they associated with other known American radicals ...and unlikely ME.

I've mixed a lot of ceiling texture in large barrels. The truck barrel-bombs that they built were easy to do and finish arming at the last minute even if there was a large weight to the materials. The ANFO technique is known by many people, other than ME terrorists, perhaps by their Aryan Nation associates. I just caught part of an episode of Conspiracy Tests on the Investigation Discovery channel where the camera caught them pouring the ingredients ( http://investigation.discovery.com/t....30536.33887.x ). There is a little more to it, now found here: ( http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/ttpyro.html ). It's not rocket science but care must be taken.

The John Doe ME guy? I don't know. Michael Fortier fits the ME look. Picture: ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10946590/ ) Michael Fortier, once involved, now out, was the main witness against Nichols. Description from the Grand Jury report:
"Based on the descriptions of these witnesses John Doe II would have to be as follows: Height 5'3" to 6'3"; Weight 140 pounds to 21 0 pounds; Build: slim and skinny to stocky and muscular; Race: white, Hispanic, Middle Eastern or Asian; Skin color: white, olive or dark; Hair color: dark blond, red, brown or black; Hair length: crew cut, 2 inches long or shoulder length; Facial hair: mustache or none."
There were many others including McVeigh look alikes.

Noting the JFK conspiracy similarity, I am reading an interesting book called The Secret Service ( http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Service...4855753&sr=8-1 ). In here, several agents still believe there may have been a conspiracy regarding the JFK assassination. All types of Treasury agents (ATF, Customs, IRS and SService) are required to be above normal intelligence and education and they are not even unofficially unified in their beliefs over what transpired with Lancer, codespeak for JFK.

My mom believes that UFO's exist. While they might, I'm holding out for an actual piece of other-world alloy from saucer wreckage myself.

And, I'm as of yet, quite skeptical of a ME/McVeigh co-operative connection.


...

[Ron61]

Wes,

My mom believes that UFO's exist. While they might, I'm holding out for an actual piece of other-world alloy from saucer wreckage myself.

You can actually say that when you have me here as proof there is life from other planets.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Wes,

My mom believes that UFO's exist. While they might, I'm holding out for an actual piece of other-world alloy from saucer wreckage myself.

You can actually say that when you have me here as proof there is life from other planets.

Ron

Ron,

Perhaps your durability all these years is because of your exotic alloy.

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Wes,
What about the Philippines connection between Nichols and, possibly, Ramzi Yosef?
Roscoe

In my post above, the link Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy...iracy_theories abreviated itself so as to not reveal that it refers directly to paragraphs "McVeigh#Conspiracy_theories". One of the paragraphs in particular refers to possible Islam radical ties:

"Jones and Israel suggest in Others Unknown that Terry Nichols had crossed paths with suspected Islamic terrorists during his frequent visits to the Philippines before the attacks. Nichols' father-in-law at the time was a Philippine police officer who owned an apartment building often rented to Arabic-speaking students with alleged terrorist connections. Former counter-terrorism adviser on the U.S. National Security Council Richard A. Clarke suggests that the improvement in Nichols's bomb-making techniques, along with telephone calls to the region upon return to the U.S, points to a possible link to Philippines-based Islamist terrorists in Cebú and the southern islands. These accounts are detailed in Richard A. Clarke's 2004 work Against All Enemies, an accounting of his public service which spanned across several administrations... ...In presiding over the trial, Judge Matsch rejected these arguments and did not allow them to be presented as a defense. There remains no credible documented evidence of Islamist or other foreign links to the Oklahoma City bombings."

If McVeigh went to the Philippines to just visit his father-in-law, one would think his wife would have acompanied him. Somewhere the Nichols/McVeigh team learned that they had to add boosters to the ANFO mix for an effective explosion and it could have come as late as over coffee with a ME student at the in-laws hotel. In the end though, I think McVeigh identified more with American Branch Davidians rather than Islamic beliefs. On the other hand, such evidence was not released if it was known, and that, in turn, could possibly be because CIA(?) would not want the extent of their intel revealed, i.e. classified. Speculation.

I imagine some Islamic radicals, somewhere, rejoiced over Oklahoma but very few, if any, knew it was coming. I think more radical American Christian sects probably cheered this one. Which was my whole point, that it isn't right to breed contempt and hate for all when a minority are the problem.

I might be a little sensitive since I am half German, by name, and a bit embarrassed that an entire nation could fall for suggestive Nazi media propoganda that all Jews were so bad they had to be extracted and even exterminated. That is what I feel is wrong in thinking, and promoting, that all Islamic are any lesser than ourselves. I also realise that this forum is a place to blow off a little steam, which is what Mike intended. Yet my fear is that divisive religious hate could grow in the nation that I love. It has gotten so that some of the news we receive is more like info-mercials than useful data.

Rats, I have to go to work. I think it is an ME World Bank plot. After all, they have most of our money or soon will have.


...

[Roscoe]

Wes,
What about the Philippines connection between Nichols and, possibly, Ramzi Yosef?
Roscoe