Laid off/Unemployed

[Rick Parker]

Obviously this epidemic is hitting our Country quite heavily. The county I live in was 13.6%. From what I an see there hasn't been any real discussion regarding it here (?) Some geographical areas are considerably worse than others,and some trades have been harder hit than others. There are Blogs throughout the internet where folks have expressed there stories and how it has effected there families. Trying times we are in no doubt.

[Paul F]

It's been mentioned here with people wondering what replica vendors might fall on tough times. We all seem to like to blame someone for our troubles. Most like to blame the opposite political party. I like to blame capitalism having gone too far. I favor capitalism, but the the Enron syndrome has taken us too far. The unteathered greed. The incentive of executives by their performance in the next quarter. Their irresponsible acts to satisfy their personal short term objectives. Not only by corporations, but the individual. Unteathered greed and irresponsible behavior by individuals. Buying houses they can't afford. Taking on debt they can't pay. And don't tell me it's the lender's fault. They buyer has to be responsible for their debts.

[Ron61]

Shasta County has a very high unemployment rate and it is getting higher by the week. I also was reading where the buyers of used vehicles are really getting hammered. seems the dealers that closed took a bunch in that weren't paid of and then when the dealers went out of business, either the original owner or the unlucky person who bought one of them is now stuck with two car payments. They have to pay off the outstanding balance on the car from the first owner plus the payments they are making on it now. When the dealers went bankrupt they naturally never paid off the unpaid balances.

Ron

[427 S/O]

Good post Rick, Found this article about no-layoff companies and most impressed with their emphasis on 'employees'. I can relate to that practice, it works!.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work...o-Layoffs-Ever

We are, for now, a 'what I need' vs. 'what I want' economy.

[trularin]

Paul, I think accountability is what is missing.

Just my opinion.

[767Jockey]

I was talking about all this with a friend the other day. What we're missing is integrity and accountability in upper management. I work in the airline industry. You will find no other industry with a higher percentage of self absorbed shameless executives than here. There was a time in my fathers age when the priority was on the product and the employees. The feeling back then was if you take care of the employees, they will make a better product. If you make a better product, the people will buy it, and as a result the shareholders will be happy. If the shareholders are happy, the shareholders will reward the executives. That worked for decades, and this basic philosophy took America from being a strong nation to being the greatest nation in the world, the engine that drives the world economy.

Somewhere along the line, and looking back I would say sometime in the early to mid '80's, this all took a huge shift. We developed a system where it is all about the executives, their outlandish compensation packages, and the shareholders. The employees vie for last place on the list of priorities along with the product itself.

In the case of airlines, which is the industry I am most familiar with, this change is vividly illustrated. After 9/11, as the industry tried to recover, some executives saw in the tragedy an opportunity, and seized it with the vigor of a hungry dog attacking a raw piece of meat. Using the bankruptcy laws in a perverse interpretation that served them well, companies threatened and sometimes even actually even entered bankruptcy with billions in cash still in the bank (see Northwest airlines for an example).

I work for Continental, we had tons of money in the bank, yet we were threatened with complete decimation of all of our labor contracts by the company, suggesting that if concessions weren't immediately agreed to that they too would enter bankruptcy. AGAIN, they too had billions in the bank. Moving along here, once these companies realized that they could use actual or threatened bankruptcy as a ruse to abrogate all their labor contracts, they did so. Now if this isn't insulting enough, here is the greatest insult of all. After doing this, with people losing jobs, losing retirements, losing homes and marriages due to pay cuts and layoffs, these real men of genius rewarded themselves for their "performance" with multi-million dollar bonuses, year after year. Many of my co workers had their pensions discontinued, with the burden of those pensions transferred to the federal government. The people affected will get 30 cents on the dollar, and those dollars will be paid by YOU, through the federal government. The companies claimed they could not possible afford to pay these pensions anymore. Oh, by the way, they went on to take more multi-million dollar bonuses after this, and they also found the money to completely fund, and sometimes overfund, the executive pension plan at the same time they were terminating the plans of the employees. Remember, YOU are paying for these terminated pension plans while these guys retire on full pensions worth millions and live out their days in mansions scattered across the best neighborhoods in America. Nice, huh? Remember that next time you hear about pensions being terminated. Remember that the head guy who has terminated these pensions likely has a very well funded pension of his own.

There is no integrity in upper and middle management anymore, there is no moral compass, there is no sense of shame, there is no sense of responsibility toward the employees. It's all about them. That's the difference between just 25 years ago and today. No one reigned them in, they were given unfettered permission to do what they wanted, they took full advantage of their freedom to do as they wish, and now everyone is surprised that the house of cards has come crashing down on us all. My only surprise is that it took so long.

As a side note in closing, you see this pilot "Sully" who is being universally lauded as a hero in the media? He and his crew did an outstanding job. He and his crew are also now working for about 40% less than they once did, and in his late 50's in age, he has had his retirement plan canceled. How in the world is he supposed to make that up at his age? It's a good thing that he'll make a few bucks speaking and selling his story, etc. Unfortunately there are thousands of Sully's out there, pilots and millions of others in all walks of life in the same position, people who have had their retirements taken from them on the very eve of retirement, while the guy that took it rakes in huge bonuses and has for himself a nice fat over funded pension.

In management now there is no sense of integrity, no sense of loyalty, no sense of shame. Only overinflated egos, and a huge sense of entitlement. Again, the only surprise is that the collapse took this long. The middle class is under attack from both ends. God help us all.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I was talking about all this with a friend the other day. What we're missing is integrity and accountability in upper management. I work in the airline industry. You will find no other industry with a higher percentage of self absorbed shameless executives than here. There was a time in my fathers age when the priority was on the product and the employees. The feeling back then was if you take care of the employees, they will make a better product. If you make a better product, the people will buy it, and as a result the shareholders will be happy. If the shareholders are happy, the shareholders will reward the executives. That worked for decades, and this basic philosophy took America from being a strong nation to being the greatest nation in the world, the engine that drives the world economy.

Somewhere along the line, and looking back I would say sometime in the early to mid '80's, this all took a huge shift. We developed a system where it is all about the executives, their outlandish compensation packages, and the shareholders. The employees vie for last place on the list of priorities along with the product itself.

In the case of airlines, which is the industry I am most familiar with, this change is vividly illustrated. After 9/11, as the industry tried to recover, some executives saw in the tragedy an opportunity, and seized it with the vigor of a hungry dog attacking a raw piece of meat. Using the bankruptcy laws in a perverse interpretation that served them well, companies threatened and sometimes even actually even entered bankruptcy with billions in cash still in the bank (see Northwest airlines for an example).

I work for Continental, we had tons of money in the bank, yet we were threatened with complete decimation of all of our labor contracts by the company, suggesting that if concessions weren't immediately agreed to that they too would enter bankruptcy. AGAIN, they too had billions in the bank. Moving along here, once these companies realized that they could use actual or threatened bankruptcy as a ruse to abrogate all their labor contracts, they did so. Now if this isn't insulting enough, here is the greatest insult of all. After doing this, with people losing jobs, losing retirements, losing homes and marriages due to pay cuts and layoffs, these real men of genius rewarded themselves for their "performance" with multi-million dollar bonuses, year after year. Many of my co workers had their pensions discontinued, with the burden of those pensions transferred to the federal government. The people affected will get 30 cents on the dollar, and those dollars will be paid by YOU, through the federal government. The companies claimed they could not possible afford to pay these pensions anymore. Oh, by the way, they went on to take more multi-million dollar bonuses after this, and they also found the money to completely fund, and sometimes overfund, the executive pension plan at the same time they were terminating the plans of the employees. Remember, YOU are paying for these terminated pension plans while these guys retire on full pensions worth millions and live out their days in mansions scattered across the best neighborhoods in America. Nice, huh? Remember that next time you hear about pensions being terminated. Remember that the head guy who has terminated these pensions likely has a very well funded pension of his own.

There is no integrity in upper and middle management anymore, there is no moral compass, there is no sense of shame, there is no sense of responsibility toward the employees. It's all about them. That's the difference between just 25 years ago and today. No one reigned them in, they were given unfettered permission to do what they wanted, they took full advantage of their freedom to do as they wish, and now everyone is surprised that the house of cards has come crashing down on us all. My only surprise is that it took so long.

As a side note in closing, you see this pilot "Sully" who is being universally lauded as a hero in the media? He and his crew did an outstanding job. He and his crew are also now working for about 40% less than they once did, and in his late 50's in age, he has had his retirement plan canceled. How in the world is he supposed to make that up at his age? It's a good thing that he'll make a few bucks speaking and selling his story, etc. Unfortunately there are thousands of Sully's out there, pilots and millions of others in all walks of life in the same position, people who have had their retirements taken from them on the very eve of retirement, while the guy that took it rakes in huge bonuses and has for himself a nice fat over funded pension.

In management now there is no sense of integrity, no sense of loyalty, no sense of shame. Only overinflated egos, and a huge sense of entitlement. Again, the only surprise is that the collapse took this long. The middle class is under attack from both ends. God help us all.

Good post 767,

rant on
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If folks thought that labor unions once had too much power, that they were evil, now the shoe is completely on the other foot. Corporations are merely unions, nearly identical to a group of workers, a group of owners banded together first to achieve what no lone owner could build, but, if left unchecked, to mostly muscle whatever outcome delivers the most earnings to the exclusive members.

Folks should remember the plight of the air traffic controllers and how it was made to look like they were the unfair ones. One of the most intense, highest stress jobs in the world, and they were made to look like they were overpaid in the gullible eyes of the American public. Unreal. Citizens actually began to believe that the middle class, the working class, as a whole, was being overpaid. It began in the '80's, this long downhill middleclass slide. Trickle Down/Hemorrhage Up. I'm embarassed to hand this off to my children. It wasn't damaged like this when I got the keys. And it may already be too late. America may never again be what it once was, to so many, and middleclass people vote as though they don't care or know, that their children, will be among the future destitute.

This is what the middle class is. It's made up of either union members ...or folks that directly benefit from the wage standard set by these unions ...no others. Sure folks, non-union labor, service, lower management, medium skilled professionals, will claim that their job compensation level is set independently. Right. They have no clue whatsoever as to how low their wages can go. They will claim that American jobs rightly moved overseas because of unions, not dawning on them that Chinese labor went for $.50 an hour ...because it really is independent. Just what did they think American organized labor would do ...come down to meet it ...and would any American work for that? Chinese auto-plant workers don't get anywhere near that of southern American non-union Toyota plant-workers. But southern non-union Toyota plant-workers get what they do because of American unions ...and the fore-sighted labor folk that sacrificed to make it happen.

In many other countries, there is no middleclass. There are no unions. And we don't have to have any here either. There is no edict written in stone. No divine law.

Perhaps the top 1 percenters think they will make even more money if there exists only rich and poor, but no middle. Wrong. Most of the market for products will be gone and, worse yet, there won't be any country with a middleclass left to sell to. The world will be a much sadder, more primitive, place.

White collar/blue collar, the result of greed is all the same if left unchecked.
rant off

Wes


...

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Good post 767,

rant on
I've said it before and...
...Just what did they think American organized labor would do ...come down to meet it ...and would any American work for that? ........

Wes


...

Whoops. I might have been wrong that Americans were unwilling to work really cheap for overseas wages.

IBM

Wes


...

[Wayne Maybury]

Scott
Sorry to hear about your situation. I wish you and your men the best and I hope that you can hang in there. Several of the mills we are closing for a couple of weeks are on the west coast as the Asian pulp market has tanked from what I have heard. The buyers simple are not buying, probably waiting for the prices to fall even further.

Bobcat
I travel Interstate 87 (the main north-south route between New York City and Montreal) on a very regular basis. Every day I pass dozens and dozens of truckloads of round logs heading north bound. This has been going on for years and is still going on today. Canada and the US are partners, not enemies. There is give and take in this relationship. Our 2 countries are the biggest two-way trading partners in the world. Our problem (for both Canada & the US) is the Pacific rim countries that don't give a damn about the workers health & safety, the environment, patent laws, or anything else.

The company I work for has spent billions of dollars over the past 15 or 20 years on cleaning up our emissions, just like every other forest products company in North America. In the same period, companies in China and other Asian countries continue to spew out millions of tons of every kind of crap you can imagine so that they can manufacture cheap crappy products for Wal Mart.

Wayne

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I was talking about all this with a friend the other day. What we're missing is integrity and accountability in upper management. I work in the airline industry. You will find no other industry with a higher percentage of self absorbed shameless executives than here. There was a time in my fathers age when the priority was on the product and the employees. The feeling back then was if you take care of the employees, they will make a better product. If you make a better product, the people will buy it, and as a result the shareholders will be happy. If the shareholders are happy, the shareholders will reward the executives. That worked for decades, and this basic philosophy took America from being a strong nation to being the greatest nation in the world, the engine that drives the world economy.

Somewhere along the line, and looking back I would say sometime in the early to mid '80's, this all took a huge shift. We developed a system where it is all about the executives, their outlandish compensation packages, and the shareholders. The employees vie for last place on the list of priorities along with the product itself.

In the case of airlines, which is the industry I am most familiar with, this change is vividly illustrated. After 9/11, as the industry tried to recover, some executives saw in the tragedy an opportunity, and seized it with the vigor of a hungry dog attacking a raw piece of meat. Using the bankruptcy laws in a perverse interpretation that served them well, companies threatened and sometimes even actually even entered bankruptcy with billions in cash still in the bank (see Northwest airlines for an example).

I work for Continental, we had tons of money in the bank, yet we were threatened with complete decimation of all of our labor contracts by the company, suggesting that if concessions weren't immediately agreed to that they too would enter bankruptcy. AGAIN, they too had billions in the bank. Moving along here, once these companies realized that they could use actual or threatened bankruptcy as a ruse to abrogate all their labor contracts, they did so. Now if this isn't insulting enough, here is the greatest insult of all. After doing this, with people losing jobs, losing retirements, losing homes and marriages due to pay cuts and layoffs, these real men of genius rewarded themselves for their "performance" with multi-million dollar bonuses, year after year. Many of my co workers had their pensions discontinued, with the burden of those pensions transferred to the federal government. The people affected will get 30 cents on the dollar, and those dollars will be paid by YOU, through the federal government. The companies claimed they could not possible afford to pay these pensions anymore. Oh, by the way, they went on to take more multi-million dollar bonuses after this, and they also found the money to completely fund, and sometimes overfund, the executive pension plan at the same time they were terminating the plans of the employees. Remember, YOU are paying for these terminated pension plans while these guys retire on full pensions worth millions and live out their days in mansions scattered across the best neighborhoods in America. Nice, huh? Remember that next time you hear about pensions being terminated. Remember that the head guy who has terminated these pensions likely has a very well funded pension of his own.

There is no integrity in upper and middle management anymore, there is no moral compass, there is no sense of shame, there is no sense of responsibility toward the employees. It's all about them. That's the difference between just 25 years ago and today. No one reigned them in, they were given unfettered permission to do what they wanted, they took full advantage of their freedom to do as they wish, and now everyone is surprised that the house of cards has come crashing down on us all. My only surprise is that it took so long.

As a side note in closing, you see this pilot "Sully" who is being universally lauded as a hero in the media? He and his crew did an outstanding job. He and his crew are also now working for about 40% less than they once did, and in his late 50's in age, he has had his retirement plan canceled. How in the world is he supposed to make that up at his age? It's a good thing that he'll make a few bucks speaking and selling his story, etc. Unfortunately there are thousands of Sully's out there, pilots and millions of others in all walks of life in the same position, people who have had their retirements taken from them on the very eve of retirement, while the guy that took it rakes in huge bonuses and has for himself a nice fat over funded pension.

In management now there is no sense of integrity, no sense of loyalty, no sense of shame. Only overinflated egos, and a huge sense of entitlement. Again, the only surprise is that the collapse took this long. The middle class is under attack from both ends. God help us all.

My brother in law is a pilot for Continental, and his rant is the same as yours.

Well said.

[Paul F]

Trularin - Agreed. When the top executives and the board are all have the same incentives, there is no accountability.

767 - It's the same in every large corporation.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Obviously this epidemic is hitting our Country quite heavily. The county I live in was 13.6%. From what I an see there hasn't been any real discussion regarding it here (?) Some geographical areas are considerably worse than others,and some trades have been harder hit than others. There are Blogs throughout the internet where folks have expressed there stories and how it has effected there families. Trying times we are in no doubt.

Interesting subject - so, look over the Stimulus package as it is now - how is that package going to put millions of people back to work? How are the programs within the package aligned with the skills of those people?

We are doomed.

[imagine2frolic]

I guess it will probably be as bad as the first one? I was, and I still am against it. Let the chips fall where they may. Life will sort it out......i2f

[Scott S]

I just got word today that Wearahuaser and the other major timber companies(including the one I contract for) are planning indefinate partial layoffs at two weeks a month. These layoffs will include all logging, hauling, mill opperations, and exporting.

Things are going to get really tough here in the wet west, my crew members are going to have a very bad time as several have had spouses already lose jobs.

Most logging companies like mine have huge equiptment payments, we are going to bleed out quick.

Scott S

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Scott S

I just got word today that Wearahuaser and the other major timber companies(including the one I contract for) are planning indefinate partial layoffs at two weeks a month. These layoffs will include all logging, hauling, mill opperations, and exporting.

Things are going to get really tough here in the wet west, my crew members are going to have a very bad time as several have had spouses already lose jobs.

Most logging companies like mine have huge equiptment payments, we are going to bleed out quick.

Scott S

Scott, same here in the deep south.......paper mills laying off 15% to 25% of the work force and are cutting back to 4 day work weeks (the ones staying open) and the plywood plants are shutting down for now, hoping to start back up in a few months....this as you know will trickle down to the loggers/haulers/pulp wood guys and everybody in general........

David

[HI Cobra]

I am way out in the middle of nowhere in Hawaii and with tourism
slowing way down things are getting tough here. I am in construction
and have seen a big drop in bid requests as things slow down. I am
doing the belt tightening now, but have always run lean just from
survival habits.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Scott S

I just got word today that Wearahuaser and the other major timber companies(including the one I contract for) are planning indefinate partial layoffs at two weeks a month. These layoffs will include all logging, hauling, mill opperations, and exporting.

Things are going to get really tough here in the wet west, my crew members are going to have a very bad time as several have had spouses already lose jobs.

Most logging companies like mine have huge equiptment payments, we are going to bleed out quick.

Scott S

I guess we won't be seeing any Weyerhaeuser going by on flat cars for a while either. Now, whenever I see a Weyerhaeuser load , I will think of you. I honestly appreciate, your can-do spirit.

I do truly feel for you with all the equipment that will be idled. You may remember I said I had to lay off quite a few guys after the Carter interest-rate fiasco. But I never had the kind of money in equipment like you must. It was nearly my last nickel, but I just didn't have, nor need, much to start with, since I started in my previous recession layoff.

The '79-'80 collapse was also unbelievably quick. One larger drywall/paint project I had was 144 unit apartment unit complex that had been progressing one 12 unit at a time. Suddenly, in the middle, they boarded up the next building, before I started, and I never went back for 2 years. And then, it went so slow, I did most of the rest of it myself. In the end, not one original permanent employee remained.

A self-employed business is not something that the breadwinner does independently. Self-employment is not for everyone. A few months before, I had my wife convinced that it would be OK, that thousands going in and out of the company checkbook a week was no big deal and we were steadily gaining. Still she worried about being so extremely frugal and resented phone calls that came anywhere between midnight and five in the morning. Every job superintendent was different. Some are night owls and some are early risers.

After the collapse, she definately wanted to get rid of the once private, now business ,telephone. It cost $50 a month compared to $14 residence charge. The $50 included a yellowpage ad and the number was out there on every statement , invoice, bid sheet and business card I had. I insisted there was no way I could afford to get rid of it. One job a month paid it.

But one day I came home after working and bidding a couple of jobs, and she had cancelled it. Embarrassed and shaken, I never even called these jobs back; they must have gotten a "No Longer in Service" message if they called. It kinda ripped the heart out of me for a while, but I knew what I had to do.

After a few dead ends, after a few years, one day the railroad called back telling her they paid $90 a day, free insurances and I made their cut. I remember she was so excited to tell me, when I got home that evening. She greatly admired this job ...up until I couldn't get off for her sisters funeral.
Job like this, they tell you up front, you marry it. Your family and friends become the brotherhood. It's more like the military than I would ever guessed, except nobody shoots at you.

I still think the job is OK, they get me for about 72 hours a week and I can still handle it just fine, even in my 60's. But successfully walking away from another trip, is not the same satisfaction as building real stuff with my own two hands, and never will be.

I hope you get all the moral support you need. It's worth it to rise again, doing what you love best, you only live once and what don't kill you, will make you stronger.

Wes


...

[Ron61]

We only have one mill left here and it has shut down one shift and is shortening the hours it is open. I don't see many logging trucks going over there now. Just no market for timber around here.

Ron

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by Ron61

We only have one mill left here and it has shut down one shift and is shortening the hours it is open. I don't see many logging trucks going over there now. Just no market for timber around here.

Ron

The big shoe dropped, today I laid off eight guys, four sub-contractor cutters, and four log trucks until April...perhaps.

This is the toughest industry in the States, I feel pretty wimpy right now.

Scott S

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Scott S

The big shoe dropped, today I laid off eight guys, four sub-contractor cutters, and four log trucks until April...perhaps.

This is the toughest industry in the States, I feel pretty wimpy right now.

Scott S

When the fickle economy crashes, I don't think anyone is quite prepared for it. If we were, we'd have to have a permanent suspicious, gloomy outlook on life, not very conducive to progress as a whole.

When I earlier stated that demand creates jobs, not employers, I didn't mean that those of us that assume leadership are unimportant. Don't ever feel wimpy for very long.

Employers, while just a cog in the economy machine, and not really heroes deserving of huge bonuses over labor, are a most important cog, so keep your chin up. God grants the skill of leadership, to serve all humans, like He grants two hands. A man is not expected to get huge bonuses over his brethran, for being lucky enough to have both of them.

I think you will find your mind is at it's most innovative when pressed like this. Perhaps a recent example was a post you made in jest that was not merely good, but brilliant in combining ideas for a new concept, even if it was just in fun. I think this is sort of innovation more likely to happen when ones subconcious is working overtime. Your mind will further open up to solve the problem.

This all seems bad, but where there is lemons, there is the innovative possiblity of making lemonade. If you can find a way, some of the machinery you need will sell at near firesale prices. When you start back up, you can be at the head of the pack. Remember, the need for houses never goes away, and if it hiccups, there is a shortage right after.

Even if you had one of the most efficient operations going, there is always room for improvement. You will need all this when you start back up. Sales prices are not likely to be so good at first. Instead of being discouraged and disgusted, try to direct your thinking to a better future and what you can do to streamline your operation.

Perhaps you can get by with half your original employees. The originals are likely to be not all available when things break loose anyway. I could tell one of my long stories about how I streamlined my little home-building nook, even though I knew I had to quit early on. It took me fifteen years to find a reasonably paying substitute and I never again needed more than two employees, while still in business. I know I often preach socialism, taking care of our fellows, but I know, in the end, that it is a dog-eat-dog world. The fittest survive in dire circumstances. When the going gets tough...

I am reminded of a story.

A couple of buddies, Joe and Mike, were hiking in Yellowstone.
They came upon a sign that read, "Caution, beware of grizzly bears".

Joe sat down and began to replace his hiking boots with track shoes.
Mike asked, "What are you doing? You don't expect to outrun a grizzly bear, do you?".

Joe replied, "I don't have to outrun the bear ...just you".

You are one of the good guys.
I sincerely wish you the very best.
Get your track shoes on.

Wes


...