More Union bullcrap

[Cobrabill]

The unions are responsible for the safe landing in the Hudson.
Did ya know that?

This was put out by the United transportation Union.


Subject: Something to think about when you hear union critics


UNIONS: THE FOLKS WHO BROUGHT YOU THE US AIRWAYS "MIRACLE" LANDING
AND RESCUE



They're calling it a miracle--the successful landing of a US Airways

Jet in the Hudson and subsequent rescue of all 155 passengers. They're detailing the heroism of all involved, starting with the pilot and including cabin crew, ferry crews, and first responders.



What they're not telling you is that just about every single one of these heroes is a Union member.



The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger, is a former national committee

member and the former safety chairman for the Airline Pilots Association and now represented by US Airline Pilots Association. He--and his union—have fought to ensure pilots get the kind of safety training to pull off what he did yesterday.



Then there are the flight attendants: They are members of the

Association of Flight Attendants-CWA.



There are the air traffic controllers: They're represented by the

National Air Traffic Controllers Association.



There are the ferry crews: They're represented by the Seafarers

International Union. They provide safety training

to their members so they're prepared for events like this accident.



There are the cops and firemen: They're represented by the

Patrolmen's Benevolent Association and the Uniformed Firefighters Association and Uniformed Fire Officers Association.

[trularin]

So, are you feeling left out?

I belong to the "union for the betterment of Trularin".

[Ron61]

Gee Bill, I never realized that you were such a staunch Union Supporter.

Ron

[terry251]

Any bets on how many of those "union members" belong because membership is mandatory?

Terry

[4RE KLR]

Originally Posted by trularin

So, are you feeling left out?

I belong to the "union for the betterment of Trularin".

tru,
I belong to a similar union.
How much are your dues, I might change unions!

Next thing they will say is they Invented the Internet!

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by terry251

Any bets on how many of those "union members" belong because membership is mandatory?Terry

Terry-all of us.

[Cobrabill]

Newsflash!!!this just in:The geese were members of The International Brotherhood of Golf Course Fertilizer Spreaders. They were waiting for their union rep to file a grievance against the pilot for violating their airspace. Sully crossed their picket line so they sabotaged the plane.

[Sharroll Celby]

So, its' a FACT that they were Union members. Big Whoop!

[Ron61]

Well at least now their ranks are somewhat reduced. Now if we could just get Congress to jump into jet engines while they are on the ground it would be a great thing.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Originally Posted by terry251
Any bets on how many of those "union members" belong because membership is mandatory?Terry

Terry-all of us.

Bill,

Are you a UTU union dues objector? The reason I ask is that I think we had a couple in our local when I was still UTU. I'm thinking they did not have to pay any local dues unless they chose local representation at Formal Investigation.

Our treasurer referred to dues objector's as "conscientious objector's", but I don't think that is the official term. The reason I finally went BLE (BLET - Brotherhood of Engineers and Trainmen) was so I could vote on local, company approved, engineer assigned days off. We were up to a normal 108 hours a week and the company had fixed it so we couldn't get time off unless it was a documentable emergency (or we got limited "special" local officer sponsorship ). We have some good local officers, drawn from the ranks, but they were were under a lot of pressure to answer higher up.

We voted, got the days off, good to skip one trip, now I only have to make a couple of 36 hour trips a week. We aren't required to take the days off, if we want the big bucks, unless we take an unauthorized sick day etc. For those unfamiliar, RR's are 24/7, structured similar to military, and require official leave for any time off, other than 8 hours FRA rest.

I think we'd be lost without a union while railroading.

I suppose the same for postal workers. I imagine they would be paid the same as newspaper delivery boys if not for their union. I guess all of us reading this would be paid thusly, no middleclass. Kind of like the Henry's Turkey Ranch. Excerpt: The Des Moines Register reported Wednesday that in one instance, a worker's pay came out to about 44 cents an hour.

I only hired out in 1990 (old guy then) and was told the story of somewhere in the '80's when the RR contract ran out. The government (PEB) mandated workers return to work and the company absolutely required workers to work for minimum wage, since they had no contract that clearly stated otherwise. I don't know if I believe this, as I'm not sure how this temporary wage snafu could have occurred regarding the Railway Labor Act. Refusing service on our road, even during vacation, precisely when contacted, is grounds for immediate dismissal, if they can find you. (you can't run ...but you can hide ).

Nowadays the company strategy normally extensively stretches out the wage negotiations as the workers continue to work for years under previous, hopefully cheaper, agreements.

The new Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I predict I'll be forced to work more again.

Wes


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[jhv48]

So what? How does union membership change the way things played out?

[Cobrabill]

Wes,here you have to pay dues.Period. If not to the BLE or UTU,then you can donate the dues amount to a charity of your choice.But you'll have no representation at a "lynching".
As far as i'm concerned,the UTUE and the BLET shouldn't exist.If i were a BLET conductor getting hauled in on a investigation,the BLE can NOT represent me.Only the union that holds my contract can represent a covered employee. Further more,if you are a BLET conductor you have no vote or say-so what so-ever in issues effecting trainmen.

108 hours a week?That sounds like the extra board to me.I had enough of that after a year.

As far as that PEB thing goes,i don't believe it.When the present contract expires you continue under that one untill a new one is ratified.

Part of our contract states that if you are more than 5 out-you don't even have to answer the phone.

The rail safety bill is a complete hand job.The only plus is that it will make me have to be certified every three years like the Hoggers do.This means conductors are going anywhere anytime soon.

And i agree,unions are a nessecary evil in railroading.And John Q Public can't understand that

[joe g]

With the post ofice broke and mail delivery needs getting less every year, why not let the homeless deliver the mail. LETS ge real, paying 40 -50 grand a year to deliver mail-- let part timer's or highschool kids do it. ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE and now the post office jsut bought new trucks with 6 cylinder gas burners -WHAT the heck are they thinking, they move at 5mph and should have a 3 cylnder motor.
joeg

[Ron61]

Bill,

I have been following your and Wes's posting closely and I do have a question or two. When I was in the CWA, they had a set up where people who weren't in the union and didn't want to be still had to pay dues. Now we are talking two completely different fields here and the rules can't be the same. In the telephone and communications industry, as a non union member because I got elected to office and found a loop hole that let me out, I really don't think the unions are a bit of good for the communications industry on the whole. We used to encourage them to go out on strike and that kept their inept members away from the computers and they were the ones that caused 99% of the problems. If they walked out for a week or so, we hardly ever had a problem. In your and Wes's case I do think they could help just as I think the miners need them for safety protection. Question # 1 is I thought that like truck drivers, you were supposed to have so many hours off after so many on. Am I interpreting this all wrong?

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

Wes

How do you work 108 hours per week? That's 18 per day, 6 days per week? That doesn't even allow enough time to sleep, never mind eat or anything else. Are there no work limits based on safety standards?

Wayne

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Bill,

I have been following your and Wes's posting closely and I do have a question or two.1) When I was in the CWA, they had a set up where people who weren't in the union and didn't want to be still had to pay dues. Now we are talking two completely different fields here and the rules can't be the same. In the telephone and communications industry, as a non union member because I got elected to office and found a loop hole that let me out, I really don't think the unions are a bit of good for the communications industry on the whole. We used to encourage them to go out on strike and that kept their inept members away from the computers and they were the ones that caused 99% of the problems. If they walked out for a week or so, we hardly ever had a problem. In your and Wes's case I do think they could help just as I think the miners need them for safety protection. 2)Question # 1 is I thought that like truck drivers, you were supposed to have so many hours off after so many on. Am I interpreting this all wrong?

Ron

Ron,i was in the Completely Worthless Association(CWA)once.

We are allowed to be on duty 12 hours after that we are "dead on the law".Then conductors have a mandated 10 hours rest and the Hoggers have 8 hours minimum off.


What's question #2?

[Ron61]

Bill,

Thanks for the answer. Sorry that I left question # 2 off. What I wanted to know was if you are on a long haul such as cross country, do you have a relief engineer who will fill in while you rest or how do they work that? I talk to some of the cross country truckers at the big truck stop just South of Redding from time to time and they have their log books, but several of them have told me that they cheat on them as they get paid by the trip and the more they drive the more they make. I know that being an engineer on the railroad is a lot different from driving an 18 wheeler in the traffic say in L.
A. or Chicago, but you still have to be alert to what is going on down the track in front of you and listen to whatever news is being sent to you by radio. Believe me, I respect the train engineers. They made the best rolling targets I ever shot at. Just joking as I used to spend some time around the yards when I was working near one. Fresno has a large one and Roseville has one that is pretty good sized.so there are a lot of engineers around them that are very friendly and great to answer questions.
By the way, I like your definition of the CWA. I guess they had to merge with a couple of other unions some years back to even keep going.

Ron

[Cobrabill]

Ron,i'm a "pool freight conductor".I work on the Yuma "Pool" which runs from Tucson To Yuma.254 miles.I work a train to Yuma,get rested and work one back to Tucson.

Amtrash for example has relief crews at different stations and that's where the "Beercan" changes crews.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Wes

How do you work 108 hours per week? That's 18 per day, 6 days per week? That doesn't even allow enough time to sleep, never mind eat or anything else. Are there no work limits based on safety standards?

Wayne

Actually it's 12 on-8 off.12 on,8 off.SO you can do 108 hours in a 7 day week.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Wes

How do you work 108 hours per week? That's 18 per day, 6 days per week? That doesn't even allow enough time to sleep, never mind eat or anything else. Are there no work limits based on safety standards?

Wayne

Wayne,

It's complicated, a hundred years in the making. The company does try to minimise the number of employees necessary to barely cover operations. We go along with it because we work by the mile, not by the hour. It often does not seem always safe to me, but yet we want the healthy income a lot of miles brings. The Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 is meant to address this but...

We work on a 24 hour clock. We can legally be forced to work 12 and be off for 8 (Actually we can work 11:59 and be off 8 ...but for simplicity...). The next "wake-up" call to work comes 1 hour+15 to 1 hour+30 minutes before the 8 (or 10 hours are up since a full 12, or over, mandates 10 hours off). We can't legally operate the train after 12, but we continue to count total hours-of-service until we are arrived at our tie-up destination, one way or another. I have been asked, and complied, to continue "over 12" train operation for an "federal exemption emergency" but it has basically been only d@mn poor planning by dispatch. The "emergency" is to get the train off the main line and into a siding, out of the way. You can see that during extremes, there is not 8 hours rest, but more like 6:45 or 5:30 because of the time it takes to get home to bed, visit a bathroom, possibly eat and the subsequent early call.

Below is an extreme example of how the hours can accumulate in a busy seven day period. We work 200 miles west, then 200 miles back east:
Mandan: Go to work at 0000 hrs midnight Sunday/Monday, work until 1200 hrs noon Monday ........................Hours worked so far, 12.
Glendive: Off until 2000 hrs Monday, work at 2000 hrs Monday, work until 0800 hrs Tuesday .........................Hours worked so far, 24. Hotel so far 8 hrs.
Mandan: Off until 1600 hrs Tuesday, work at 1600 Tuesday, work until 0400 hrs Wednesday .........................Hours worked so far, 36. Home for 8 hrs total.
Glendive: Off until 1200 hrs Wednesday, work at 1200 Wednesday, work until 0000 hrs Wednesday/Thursday ...Hours worked so far, 48. Hotel so far 16 hrs total.
Mandan: Off until 0800 hrs Thursday, work at 0800 Thursday, work until 2000 hrs Thursday ..........................Hours worked so far, 60. Home for 16 hrs total.
Glendive: Off until 0400 hrs Friday, work at 0400 Friday, work until 1600 hrs Friday ......................................Hours worked so far, 72. Hotel so far 24 hrs total.
Mandan: Off until 0000 hrs Friday/Saturday, work at 0000 Friday/Saturday, work until 1200 hrs Saturday .........Hours worked so far, 94. Home for 24 hrs total.
Glendive: Off until 2000 hrs Saturday, work at 2000 Saturday, work until 0800 hrs Sunday .............................Hours worked so far, 102. Hotel so far 32 hrs total.
Mandan: Off until 1600 hrs Sunday, work 8 until 0000 hrs midnight Sunday/Monday plus 4 more after ...............Hours worked so far to 0000, 104 for the week, Midnight Sunday to Midnight Sunday (or 108 until off at 0400 hrs Monday). Home for 32 hrs total.

In reality, we are in a hotel about 12 hrs in between two 12 hour work trips, so that a round trip (tour) is about 36 hours. If I count time officially away from home, I add 3 casual tours of 36 hours for 108. There is 168 hours in a 7 day week, so typically three 20 hour periods might be spent at home to burn the leftover 60. If I don't count hotel time, I'm only technically on the train itself for 72 hours, three 24 hour actual in-seat round trip tours.

At my age, I prefer to be only gone for two 36 hour tours, for 72 hours a week from home. My internal clock is screwed up from years of this 24/7 B.S.

Work calls actually vary and are more random than regular. The proverbial long hours of boredom, broken up by brief moments of sheer terror and a few stolen hours of blissful sleep.

Wes

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