I almost shot a young man on Friday night (long)

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

I would bet there are a lot of readers who have put themselves mentally into such a spot as the one you survived. Any observations you might offer would be ones I would certainly want to take heed of.
In other words what Jamo said..."Sorry for sharing? Are you kidding?"

Your aftermath analysis is the other, less scary half of the episode Buzz. I for one appreciate the insight you offer after the fact. Just maybe, someone can take a point of lesson learned from what happened with you, and your introspective "after" thoughts, and utilize it in a positive way.
Please, if so inclined, continue to share those thoughts and feelings.

I agree whole heartedly. I look at it and am not sure I would have been able to control the same situation. I really appreciate the introspect afterwards too. It gives me something else to think on.

[Paul F]

No arguments with your points Buzz.

I find myself sometimes abusing the tools at hand. I have a fast car and therefore, I certainly find myself using that power to drive more aggressively than necessary for the sake of the power of the car.

I had a 4-wheel drive car in snow country. It got me in more trouble than it got me out of, because I was more adventuresome than I should have been because of the fact that I had 4-wheel drive.

My only point is that the presence of tools can be a good thing or a bad thing depending upon the users maturity and training. You handled it well. It was a most-tense situation of one against many in a gang situation that could have very quickly gotten out of control. Your experience from this event is priceless for the next time (let's hope it never arrives).

[Ron61]

Paul & Buzz,

Both of you have good points. It was well handled and many people will never be in that situation I hope. Living in a dope infested area, I have only had to show mine twice, and never had to actually draw it as their knives couldn't reach across the street.
But having worked as an assistant to the NRA instructor here giving classes for people to qualify to get their carry permits, I have seen a few that if I had been the lead instructor I would not have passed. Attitude has a lot to do with the handling of any weapon I feel and a few were in there just to say I have a gun and strut around. They are the ones that I fear would mess up badly in any situation. In all the years I have carried I have only had to show the gun twice and both times the bad guys backed off. I don't want to have to ever use my gun, but would if that was the last resort. With my physical disabilities now I can't even run, so I have stopped hiking in some of the canyons because I want to avoid the dopers who are shooting at the police with automatic rifles. The word has spread that certain people around here do carry and for the most part by using discretion and avoiding certain places when necessary, I can avoid getting into a situation. This may seem cowardly to many, but I do not want to ever have to shoot another person no matter what the cause. And since I can no longer run to avoid anything such as Buzz had to face, I know who and where the most dangerous places and people are and just try to avoid them.

It is a sad state of affairs when you live in an area where you are almost forced to carry to walk down a street.

Ron

[Buzz]

Ron, there's nothing remotely cowardly about avoiding the areas frequented by scumbags; it's just plain common sense, ol' Buddy.

Paul, you raise an interesting point - the superhero syndrome that supposedly makes people with guns feel somehow invulnerable and encourages them to be more assertive, aggressive and less cautious about avoiding trouble than they would be when unarmed. In reality, it's generally the opposite.

One often finds that the sort of person who may exhibit that tendency is one with self-esteem and fear-based aggression problems to begin with and they tend to act out and "power trip" whenever they can and in many different ways.

Normal, mostly well-adjusted and grounded people do not seek enhancement and gratification from inanimate objects and tend to be painfully aware of the grave seriousness involved in using a gun in any non-recreational/practice scenario.

The car example is a good one, though, but putting any type of performance machine through its paces is one thing - recklessness is a whole 'nother thing altogether. Which would you be more cautious and alert driving through town in - a $200000.00 Lamborghini or a beat-up ol' Probe?

[cobra bill]

Well played Buzz, glad to hear nothing bad happened to anyone.

[392cobra]

Ron,to your point of avoiding a situation to start with..

The cop who was my CHL instructor gave a lot of good advice.One that really stuck out with me was "If you wouldn't go to a place unarmed,don't go armed either."

[Bobcat]

Buzz/Paul ... excellent point about guns making people feel invulnerable, more aggressive and assertive . Years ago when I went through my classes for my CWP , the Instructor made a huge point about how carrying a concealed weapon actually took some of your "rights " away . For example , if you were armed and walking down the sidewalk and there was a group of potential troublemakers in front of you and you could just cross the street , you did NOT have the right to keep going and force the issue . If you had to pull and use your weapon and there was a way to have avoided the situation ,then you were in deep you know what .
In my view , a firearm is always a final and last resort to solve a situation that in retrospect may have been avoided ... and yes , I understand that sometimes there is no way to avoid the situation . However , my philosophy is to try avoid the confrontation at all costs .... even if I have to go another way etc.
Please understand that I am NOT criticizing what you did as it appears to me that it escalated extremely quickly . Also , when examined later away from the emotion and danger , it`s easy to find fault with what you did ... but keep in mind , in my opinion , you did react in a reasoned and restrained manner ... and that`s what counts .

Bob

[Ron61]

Bob,

However , my philosophy is to try avoid the confrontation at all costs ....

That is what is taught at all of the classes here but in Buzz's case he was caught in an unusual situation and never had any chance to avoid it. In his case, at lest in this county, he would have been justified in using his weapon if things had gotten to that point. One of the two times that I mentioned that I had to show my gun was when I walked across the street to avoid a group of dopers and they came after me with baseball bats and cussing like a sailor. That ended when I raised my shirt tail and put my hand on the gun and they just sort of slunk back across the street into their driveway. I then called the police, the Captain was a friend of mine, and told him what happened. He told me if they ever approached me again to not let any of them get close enough to hit me and that they would look into them. All 5 of them wound up in Pelican Bay Prison and just as soon as they got out 4 either killed themselves or were killed and the other vanished. Now the past two years with things as bad as they are we even have the Mexican Dopers moving in up here to raise their dope and set up Meth labs, so the danger in just walking down a street has increased a great deal. And I am not talking about back streets. Last month there were four stabbings and a homeless man was beat to death on one of the main streets.

Ron

[Bobcat]

Ron , I was not trying to judge or criticize as I realize that sometimes you do everything possible and still end up in a confrontation .... and I hope it wasn`t taken as such . This also happened to me once in the middle of nowhere late at night in VA . I stopped to take a leak and when I came out of the woods , there were 4 men around my car . Without my gun , it would have gotten ugly fast ... luckily , I , like you , only had to show it .
I think any reasonable person will do all they can to avoid a confrontation ... but I will go only so far and if backed into a corner will defend myself in ANY way I can .... as I`m sure anyone else would.

Bob

[Ron61]

Bob,

I never read it as you trying to criticize anyone. Most people who carry are very careful to try and avoid any situation. And like your experience, sometimes they just appear and you are caught in them. What we try to get across in the classes is avoidance and only pull the weapon if you have no other choice, but if you do pull it be prepared to use it if the situation gets out of hand. Otherwise don't draw it just to impress some people that you have a gun. I prefer they don't even know that I do have one.

Ron

[Buzz]

I'm with you all the way on avoidance and discreet carry, Ron. Outside of ranch/wilderness areas (or sporting a shiny nickel .38 Super at a backyard shooting club BBQ) I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would want to open carry in an urban/public setting even when it's legally permissible.

[Jamo]

Jaysus...lots of analysis from the comfort of lounge chairs.

Buzz...like I said, if someone isn't scared sh!tless in a situation like that, they are crazy or lying their asses off. But you get a little used to it and if you can keep a clear head...you live. You did.

I typically leave my piece in the car when I walk into a group of pickets...but I have other stuff to play with. The street scenes or labor camps...I've got it with me.

There aren't any rules, you don't know when a situation is going to happen and you don't get the luxury of time for a checklist.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Buzz...like I said, if someone isn't scared sh!tless in a situation like that, they are crazy or lying their asses off. But you get a little used to it and if you can keep a clear head...you live. You did.

ZACCTLY, you're still here and in one piece, no holes in your hide.....Any time you come out of a "situation" like that alive, you done good.........

Analizing it afterwoods is a good thing, just don't overdo it.........

David

[ChuckG]

Buzz, as far as the safety on the Glock, check out the H&K P7. It's squeeze grip safety should keep you from ever shooting yourself in the leg.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by ChuckG

Buzz, as far as the safety on the Glock, check out the H&K P7. It's squeeze grip safety should keep you from ever shooting yourself in the leg.

I carry a Glock concealed everyday, and the trigger safety has never been a problem.

[Buzz]

I never said that I had a problem with the trigger safety myself; I just find that it makes no sense at all. If you (or anything else for that matter) pulls the trigger, the "safety" is automatically disengaged and the gun - if a round is chambered - will fire.

The only safety mechanism when it comes to Glocks is following the basic rules of firearm handling. Don't point it or put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to fire. Glocks are designed to be ready to fire from the moment the operator chambers a round. That so called "trigger safety" is probably just there to satisfy some regulation stating that there must be a safety device built in and Mr. Glock came up with a solution that in no way slows or hinders the operation of the weapon once it's in battery.

Having someone else tugging and fumbling for something to depress to free my gun from my holster definitely gives me that uneasy feeling that I am at risk of being shot in the leg. When I draw, it's a memorized, automatic action and my trigger finger is indexed along the frame outside of the trigger guard. There's not a remote chance I will ever shoot my own leg.

[rustyBob]

Buzz.....this is just my 2 cents on this........for every action there is a reaction.......you reacted to an action against you personaly........the girl hit your car,a guy attacks you ,another guy pulls a knife on you,the cops draw down on you,you came through a no win situation alive and well,don't second guess what you did because you walked away alive......heaven forbid you could had been stabbed,or shot,or jumped by the crowd and beaten half to death......you win....you're alive to talk about it.

[SP01715]

It's all training Buzz. From my military and Law enforcement training my trigger finger automatically goes along the fram rail and not onto the trigger until I am ready to fire. I have several firearms with external safeties, but I carried a glock on the job for 12 years, and now concealed, and would not carry it if it had an external safety.

If trained properly (and praticed) the trigger saftery is just as safe as any other weapon with an external safety. The department I worked for even dropped several glocks from helicopters at 500', and not once did they have a misfire.

[bomelia]

Holy crap Buzz! That was amazing. You did good. That SOB never had a clue how close he was to smelling dirt. Idiot.

Stories like that make me want to go out and get trained for a handgun. I have shot many rifles and own some shotguns. But I have never considered a handgun.

During my long run last week, I had a scarry thing happen. I crawled down the side a Tennessee bridge to soak my feet in the water. I had a creepy feeling about the place so I only stayed a short while. When I was back on the road, I looked over my shoulder. A big grizzly of a guy was standing where I had been. A minute later, he shot a shotgun over my head. Yelled at me "yeah, I'm talkin to YOU". Mother phucker scared the $hit out of me. No cell phone coverage for 4 more miles. When I did get coverage, I called 911. Asked if what I had done was wrong... state right of way and all of that. Operator said "No way!" and "stay right there, the sherrif is on the way".

When he got to me, I explained the whole situation. Then, more sherrifs showed up. They explained to me that in Tennessee, you may NEVER use a gun in such a manner. Sure, if someone is robbing you, breaking and entering, etc. But even if I were "trespassing", he could not do what he did. Well, they went and got him. I know nothing more then that.

I could not carry a gun on such a run if I wanted too. Too much weight, plus, I would have to be licensed in 2-3 states. But I wish I had an option to mace. Really.

Mike

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by bomelia

I had a creepy feeling about the place so I only stayed a short while. When I was back on the road, I looked over my shoulder. A big grizzly of a guy was standing where I had been. A minute later, he shot a shotgun over my head. Yelled at me "yeah, I'm talkin to YOU". Mother phucker scared the $hit out of me.
Mike

I'm betting that your pace picked up a bit.