Denies Flyover 1stTime In 42Yrs Why..

[map]

What a Surprise!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVxwb58XfZA

[Excaliber]

This news is several months old. I was startled when I first became aware of the controversy but when I looked into a little deeper, I could understand the logical position of the Pentagon.

The organizers make no apology for and are proud of the Christian nature of this event. Christian singing groups, speakers, printed hand out's are all about celebrating a christian lifestyle. God bless them, I hope they do well.

But it is troubling that they ask the Federal Government to support their rally. This is a good example of separation of church and state. Would you expect the Pentagon to do a flyover for a Muslim Rally of similiar nature?

[VRM]

Good. I do not want my tax dollars used to promote any sort of religious event for any faith.

And they should get a bill for the last 42 years to reimburse the taxpayers.

Steve

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

This news is several months old. I was startled when I first became aware of the controversy but when I looked into a little deeper, I could understand the logical position of the Pentagon.

The organizers make no apology for and are proud of the Christian nature of this event. Christian singing groups, speakers, printed hand out's are all about celebrating a christian lifestyle. God bless them, I hope they do well.

But it is troubling that they ask the Federal Government to support their rally. This is a good example of separation of church and state. Would you expect the Pentagon to do a flyover for a Muslim Rally of similiar nature?

Perhaps you could explain to us what separation church and state is?

[Excaliber]

Perhaps I won't even bother to answer such a silly question.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

This news is several months old. I was startled when I first became aware of the controversy but when I looked into a little deeper, I could understand the logical position of the Pentagon.

The organizers make no apology for and are proud of the Christian nature of this event. Christian singing groups, speakers, printed hand out's are all about celebrating a christian lifestyle. God bless them, I hope they do well.

But it is troubling that they ask the Federal Government to support their rally. This is a good example of separation of church and state. Would you expect the Pentagon to do a flyover for a Muslim Rally of similiar nature?

Well, if the rally was in the Middle East, and a few things were gonna be dropped...yes, I can live with that.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Well, if the rally was in the Middle East, and a few things were gonna be dropped...yes, I can live with that.

I was wondering who was going to get that one...

[Excaliber]

Eh eh, might be a solid game plan at that...

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Perhaps I won't even bother to answer such a silly question.

That what I thought you would say, after you made the silly statement

[Excaliber]

Razor, I would be interested in YOUR version of separation of church and state. Why you think this christian rally does not violtate that standard. Or why a fly over should or shouldn't be allowed at a Muslim Rally.

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Razor, I would be interested in YOUR version of separation of church and state. Why you think this christian rally does not violtate that standard. Or why a fly over should or shouldn't be allowed at a Muslim Rally.

A brief explanation would be that the first amendment was wanted by people of faith to protect them from the government. Just read Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia, his experience was that Virginia was collecting taxes to support the Anglican Church which was the state church, and if you were not a member of the state church you couldn't hold office, and they even had the death penalty for grievous violations against the official doctrinal position of the Anglicans, although no one was ever executed in Virginia they were jailed, and their was a Quaker women put to death in Massachusetts for violating the laws supporting the state church. They found themselves living in the same environment as they had in Europe the only difference being a state church instead of a national church.
Today the general accepted understanding is the opposite it is a protection of the government from the church. I will give one example in the change of the thinking. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both attended Church services in the Capitol Building, which was used for church services until the 1860s. That certainly would not be allowed in todays world.
The term separation of church and state is not found in the Constitution or any other government document, it was used by Thomas Jefferson in a private letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 they were wanting clarification on religious freedom since it had not been enumerated as an unalienable right. The Baptist had suffered under the laws as they had been and wanted to know Jefferson position, he told them he was for religious freedom, as he authored the Virginia bill for the same in 1779, he wrote,

"...that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error and has nothing to fear from conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them"

As far as a fly over at a Muslim rally I'm all for it as long as the planes are fully armed its a joke, its a joke.

[Excaliber]

We can take separation to far, I do believe. Like "One Nation Under God" or the pledge of allegiance. Prayer in schools is tricky, enforced with to heavy a hand at times, justifiable in others.

In regards to THIS rally I think the Pentagon made the right call. They sound like a great bunch of patriotic folks and I support their christian outlook on life. The Pentagon concluded, in this instance, that it was primarily a religious gathering first, a call to honor Vets second. Both worthy efforts. I would have to agree with the Pentagon's conclusion on this particular rally.

On another issue. It really bother's me when private religious schools accept money the Federal governement supplies for whatever program's they may have. School lunches for instance, or whatever. There should be a strict separation there as well. Primarily because the religious school may be tempted or pressured to change their religious convictions due to the Fed influence. Indeed, they may be COMPELLED to change their standards because they have accepted money.

The rally in question here may have been authorized for a fly over by one simple change. Remove the religious statements, bible verse quotes and clear references to a "Godly lifestyle" from their brochures. Put the emphasis back on a celebration for Vets, country, etc. Let them have their christian music and/or prayer time, just be a little more "low key" with it, IF they expect to have Federal support.

NASCAR seems to strike a nice balance in that regard.

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

We can take separation to far, I do believe. Like "One Nation Under God" or the pledge of allegiance. Prayer in schools is tricky, enforced with to heavy a hand at times, justifiable in others.

In regards to THIS rally I think the Pentagon made the right call. They sound like a great bunch of patriotic folks and I support their christian outlook on life. The Pentagon concluded, in this instance, that it was primarily a religious gathering first, a call to honor Vets second. Both worthy efforts. I would have to agree with the Pentagon's conclusion on this particular rally.

On another issue. It really bother's me when private religious schools accept money the Federal governement supplies for whatever program's they may have. School lunches for instance, or whatever. There should be a strict separation there as well. Primarily because the religious school may be tempted or pressured to change their religious convictions due to the Fed influence. Indeed, they may be COMPELLED to change their standards because they have accepted money.

The rally in question here may have been authorized for a fly over by one simple change. Remove the religious statements, bible verse quotes and clear references to a "Godly lifestyle" from their brochures. Put the emphasis back on a celebration for Vets, country, etc. Let them have their christian music and/or prayer time, just be a little more "low key" with it, IF they expect to have Federal support.

NASCAR seems to strike a nice balance in that regard.

Our Founding Fathers wouldn't have had a problem this event or a prayer at a football game, or a graduation. For example:

In 1782 Congress pursued a plan to print Bibles.
Thomas Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes, provided Federal funding for missionary work among Indians tribes, and declared that religious schools would receive the patronage of the government. H.S.888 Dec.18,2007

I can cite many dozens of like acts and quotes of the Founding Fathers. The present day secular position is the total opposite of early America. The term separation of church and state wasn't even used until 1947, when in a Supreme Court decision they quoted the term used in the private letter of Thomas Jefferson. Our Founding Fathers would be astounded at the secular position that is now propagated.
Does it make since that the first amendment would give freedom to the press, to free speech, and than to limit religious expression. I realize all three have boundaries, but not legal limits in their expression. Only freedom of religion has been bound, and limited.

[Ronbo]

It doesn't matter what the focus of the public gathering is... IT'S A PUBLIC GATHERING!

Wether the focus of the gathering is God, Football, Cobra's, ect...

This was message sending clear and simple. Obama was letting his feelings about a portion of the American public be known. This man is full of hate for anyone white and christian.

[bomelia]

Conservative Christians tend to be very patriotic. Does not mean they deserve a "flyover" at tax payer expense, but it is not out of the realm of understanding. Just like Muslims wanting feet washing facilties in airports. More oft than not, the Guv will more likely go out of its way for, say Muslims than Christians.

As per Jamo, I agree with flyovers and dropins (in certain parts of the ME)

Mike

[Excaliber]

This man is full of hate for anyone white and christian.

Uh, Ronbo, that is simply the dumbest most racist post we've had in awhile. Seriously, read that again. Man that is straight out of a Klu Klux clan playbook.

[computerworks]

Too many "hot" keywords in this thread.

Move on.