96" wheelbase Cobra?

[xb-60]

Saw a 60s' advertisement for AC Cobras (English magazine ad.).
In the text of the advertisement, there was mention of "three model designations....including the AC 289...., the AC 427 convertible, using the 427 cubic inch Ford, and the Cobra 427....dimensions of the models are similar except that the wheelbase of the 427s is extended six inches to accomodate the larger engines".
Then looking at the listed specs, they quote the AC 289 with a 90" wheelbase and overall length of 166", and the AC 427 version with a wheelbase of 96", and an overall length at 175". And this is from AC Cars, England!
Is there a story there somewhere?
Cheers,
Glen

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by xb-60

Saw a 60s' advertisement for AC Cobras (English magazine ad.)....AC 427 version with a wheelbase of 96", and an overall length at 175". And this is from AC Cars, England!
Is there a story there somewhere?

Only story may be a typo in the ad. AC made a 96" wb model called AC428 or AC Frua. Not a Cobra, but used a stretched coil-spring frame.

[xb-60]

That WAS a short story.
I googled AC428 and Frua, and there is was. Yep, AC428 (not AC427 convertible) was built on a MkIII chassis, lengthened by 6".
It's actually not a bad looking car particularly considering that it first came out in 1965.
In appearance it looks to me a bit like a convertible version of a Bizzarini GT5300 (327 Chev powered) or a Maserati Mistral.
Cheers,
Glen

[GWL]

Goggle AC Owners Club for a UK forum that will give you more information on all the AC cars produced. There is a present AC Frua restoration project going on.

George

[j jones]

The AC Frua started out as an AC 427, but the supplyof 427 engines dried up, so it became the AC 428. They were good cars, but too expensive initially and fiercely hot-running. The heat issue can be fixed.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by j jones

The AC Frua started out as an AC 427, but the supplyof 427 engines dried up, so it became the AC 428. They were good cars, but too expensive initially and fiercely hot-running. The heat issue can be fixed.

jj - COB/COX 289 cars were officially called AC 289s instead of AC Cobras, so I assumed that an AC 427 was a 'Cobra' as well, but no, obviously not.
Cheers,
Glen

[j jones]

Frua have a "CF" or "CFX" prefix on the chassis numbers.

"CF" is the domestic (right-hand drive) prefix, "CFX" ('X' for EXPORT) is left-hand drive.

The Frua chassis is identical to the 90" series III (Big Block) Cobra, except being 96" long, and having rubber suspension bushings rather than bronze. The metal bushing was supposed to be more accurate, but didn't last very long, and were intended for racing. (many "originals" are using the rubber ones now).

The Cobras and Fruas were made side-by-side, as seen in factory photographs.

There is endless debate about who did what, and the definition of "Cobra".

Shelby, Ford and AC developed AC's Ace/Bristol roadster by stages into what became the iconic Cobra. Before Shelby arrived on the scene, AC and Rudd had already shoehorned a Ford 2.6 engine into their little, lightweight car.

Shelby eventually wound up having AC ship rolling chassis with bodies to California, where the engine and transmission were installed. (It made no sense to ship american running gear to the UK and re-import back to the USA).

Shelby American and Ford continued to develop cars for racing. Ford did the engineering to create the series III big-block Chassis to make it strong enough to handle the power and weight of the 427 FE (and the 428 that most original Cobras were sold with).

It has been claimed that ol' Shel was forced to replace the 428 engines in his Cobras with 427's. Mayyyybe...., who really knows? Who really cares, or can prove it? Cobras have 427's! End of story.

Fruas also had 427's. Some of them, at least.

The cars were tremendously expensive in their day. Chassis built in England, then Shipped to Italy to be bodied, then back to England where American running gear was installed. Wayyy to expensive and too complicated (Strikes in Italy in '68 and '69), 427's were much costlier and going out of production - so they renamed their car "AC 428", mindful of Shelby having been called out for misrepresenting (some thought) "his" Cobra.

But the 81 AC fruas built from 1965 until 1973 were 'bespoke'. Built to order. If the customer wanted a 427, that's what they built. There no arguing about it. There are no records to prove or disprove it - just as there's no point arguing if an "original" Cobra was purchased with a 427 under the bonnet. Maybe, maybe not.

So, what is a Cobra? Is a Frua a Cobra?

A Frua looks nothing like a Cobra - Original, Contiunation, Re-creation, Tribute or Kit. It looks only like the 81 cars made. There are no others. Under the skin, however - Yes. It's as much a Cobra as a Cobra.

You could take parts off an "Original" Big Block Cobra, bolt them onto a Frua and drive off. Chassis, steering, differential, brakes, engine, transmission, and electrics.

Mike McClusky did some suspension upgrades on my car, and I sold the original springs, Koni shocks and wheels to an emminent Cobra owner who had one of his (original) cars in the shop at the same time. In they went. So...

Amazing. Bearing in mind that this car is a GT, and weighs more than a Cobra roadster, it's as original as a series III BB Cobra.

You don't have to tell people it's "the real thing". And it's a lot less expensive, more comfortable and much more useable. And you can dust other cars of it's vintage in a cloud of blue tire smoke. Goes around corners too. Sweet!

[j jones]

I seem to have hijacked this old thread, so I'll add this one more thing:

There is a Frua for sale in Australia.

It appears that the owner has done an excellent job bringing it back to life.

It's been brought down to bare metal (Italian steel=rust), and had some pretty tasty engine work. It is a RHD car, but (consider this!) the ACOC actually has ORIGINAL LHD interior parts in their stocks. And all Fruas (I think) were made to be either RH or LH drive cars. The mounting brackets for Brakes, Clutch and accelerator are in place.

You car find the car on the "oldtimer australia" website.

DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER TURNING IT INTO A COBRA ROADSTER (this just a friendly warning - it's been done; a mistake)

The price is (in my humble opinion) very fair. I have no horse in this race.

I realize this car may not be to the taste of many on the Club Cobra forum. We all have our opinions.

My opinion: These cars are undervalued. They're much rarer than their Cobra (brothers? cousins?) counterparts, and if you want to tour the car, way more driveable. (It's a coupe. Install Air conditioning, a radio and insulation).

[xb-60]

Thanks for all that information. Interesting stuff.
A couple of questions….
When you say that AC and Rudd already had a 260 Ford engine fitted to an Ace body/chassis "before Shelby arrived on the scene", had AC done this all on their own initiative, or had Shelby sent them an engine and it was fitted to the Ace body before he actually got there to talk about a deal?
Next one…and you can take it as a comment…..what’s a Cobra ‘relative’ doing fitted with an automatic transmission?
Cheers,
Glen

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by j jones

...Before Shelby arrived on the scene, AC and Rudd had already shoehorned a Ford 260 engine into their little, lightweight car.

It sounds like the 260 Ford you're referring to is the Rudd tuned 2.6 litre Zephyr motor, not the SBF 260 V8 that Shelby initially used. And 'shoe-horned' is a correct description I think, as the six cylinder engine is longer than the very compact little 260 V8.
Cheers,
Glen

[j jones]

The 2.6 English Ford Zephyr engine was installed before C. Shelby came shopping for a lightweight car to modify: This (because I'm lazy) from Wikipedia-

"This" (the BMW derived 2 liter 6) "was replaced in 1962" (September, 1961) "with the 2.6 litre Ken Rudd 'Ruddspeed' engine, adapted from that used in the Ford Zephyr. It used 3 Weber or SU carburettors and either a 'Mays' or iron cast head. This set up boosted the car's performance further, but it was not long before Carroll Shelby drew AC's attention to the Cobra, so only about 40 were made."

So, Yes. AC shoved a Ford engine in their ACE before Carroll Shelby appeared. It was not a well-balanced car, though. It needed suspension work (as did the first 289's).

As for the C6 Police Interceptor 3 speed auto box, C. Shelby used the same transmission on the two "Super Snakes" he made. One he kept (but sold at Barret-Jackson for $5.5 million), the other he gave to Bill Cosby (who gave it back). (Too scarey for him. 800 horsepower)

(The C6 police interceptor trans was the only practical answer for all that power and torque)(Cosby's car was destroyed, I believe)

The Frua's were equipped with either a C6 auto, or a 4 speed toploader.

The differential was generally 2.88 for the auto, different for the manual.

Of course, as the Salisbury diff's were EXACTLY the same as the "Cobra's", the ratios can be easlily changed. I just did it, when I changed my tranny to a manual.

(BTW, You can install a toploader, or a Tremec 5 speed very easily. They fit, and the brackets for the clutch are in all Fruas, regardless of what they were delivered with.)

[j jones]

The "Toploader" 4 speed was a Borg-Warner design. *
Tremec bought Borg-Warners transmission designs. The Tremec T-600 (and others) are the continuation of the "Top-Loaders". *
The T-600 is a good transmission, and capable of handling the power and torque of the Big-Block FE engines. Five gears make a big improvement over the Toploader's 4.

*(please see later post. I was talking through my hat, or actually, perpetrating cr*p I heard from someone else)

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by j jones

The "Toploader" 4 speed was a Borg-Warner design.
Tremec bought Borg-Warners transmission designs. The Tremec T-600 (and others) are the continuation of the "Top-Loaders".
The T-600 is a good transmission, and capable of handling the power and torque of the Big-Block FE engines. Five gears make a big improvement over the Toploader's 4.

Hi again Mr Jones!
I don't know much about the lineage here. The Toploader is a Ford gearbox. So Ford acquired the design from B-W? And the T-600 is a Toploader with a significant makeover? And further, the four speed Kar Kraft gearbox used in the Ford GT40 MkII was a development of the Toploader as well, yes? Any other re-incarnations of the Toploader out there?
Cheers,
Glen

[j jones]

Yes. They (AC) used what was available to them domestically. AC was a tiny company, with very limited resources. They did, however, make beautiful cars that had a history of great success on the racetrack BCS (Before Carroll Shelby).

The "work" AC had done to get the English Ford engine into the car made installing the American V8's an easy job.

(I just get annoyed hearing my fellow Americans attempt to grab all the credit for the "Cobra", which was really a co-operative multi-national piece of work. Carroll Shelby deserves a lot of credit, but so does AC and so do Shelby's team)

The Cobra has the aerodynamic qualities of a brick. It overcomes it's shortcomings with raw power. But it's fun, makes a great noise and it beat Ferrari. Yea!

[j jones]

I may very well be completely wrong about the origins of the "Toploader".

Toploader was the replacement for the B-W T-10, I believe.

I was told by someone it was a B-W design, and that Ford took over manufacture for cost, supply and quality reasons. Half remembered Hearsay on my part.

I appologize for propigating cr*p, if that's what I did. Dunno.

I'll take it back.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by j jones

Toploader was the replacement for the B-W T-10, I believe.

The Toploader was Ford's own replacement for the B-W T-10 in their manual transmission lineup, but I don't think it was a development of the B-W trans.
Depending on vintage, the Toploader designations are RUG, HEH and Tremec T-170, so it seems that Tremec (TTC) probably bought the rights to the Toploader when Ford had finished with it.
Back in mid '60s, Ford Kar Kraft 'repackaged' the Toploader for service in the 427 powered GT40 MkII (Kar Kraft T-44 transaxle). This path was taken, I believe, because of the strength of the Toploader internals.
Jerico transmissions also took inspiration from the Ford Toploader for their race transmissions.

I think I've just hijacked my own thread....
Cheers,
Glen

[mervy49]

When I was very young maybe 6 or 7 years old my mom bought me a 'Dinkey' car. This was a popular toy in those years, mid 1950's. The car was an AC Bristol, made in England. The car was about 2 and a half or 3 inches long max. This is where my love of cars developed and eventually, 10 years later, Shelby's creations showed up on the scene. It took another 25 years after that to build my own Cobra replica.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by mervy49

When I was very young maybe 6 or 7 years old my mom bought me a 'Dinkey' car. This was a popular toy in those years, mid 1950's. The car was an AC Bristol, made in England. The car was about 2 and a half or 3 inches long max. This is where my love of cars developed and eventually, 10 years later, Shelby's creations showed up on the scene. It took another 25 years after that to build my own Cobra replica.

Hi Merv,
My interest started with a Scalextric Cobra around 45 years ago! I still don't have a 1:1 scale, but....I WILL get there.
Cheers,
Glen

[mervy49]

Xb-60....I'm hoping for you that happens soon, wonderful playthings they are.