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17Likes
01-16-2017, 07:15 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Mendota,
IL
Cobra Make, Engine:
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Leaf sprung A arm bolt washer and nut question
Hi.... anyone have a picture of the shoulder bolt nut and washer that a leaf spring car takes. These are the ones that hold the A arm to the chassis. I am told they are special and that the washer is not just a flat washer.
Thanks Mark
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01-16-2017, 08:48 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Plymouth,
MA
Cobra Make, Engine: MidStates, 351C, 4spd, 9"
Posts: 392
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There may be a close up or two in Jeff Gagnon's Gold 289 build.
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"It's not about getting from point A to point B. It is the point"
-J. James
M. Krause
1.508.944.3368
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01-16-2017, 09:32 PM
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CC Member
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Mike I don't remember seeing any in his build thread. If there is anything they are already installed and will not show what I need to see.
Mark
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01-16-2017, 11:19 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Carlsbad,
Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: SAI FIA, 289HP (5-bolt), 48IDA Webers
Posts: 1,244
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If I have some time tomorrow I'll photograph an original set that I have.
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01-17-2017, 08:30 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Manchester,
NH
Cobra Make, Engine: AK1085 (302), HTM111 (427 Comp), CSX2375R (289 Comp) and 427S/C
Posts: 18,833
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I use the adjustable style... On the head of the bolt there is a flat so that it does not spin, easy to do on a grinder.
Here is a car from AC, the way they were...
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01-17-2017, 09:11 AM
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Senile Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Buffalo, NY USA,
NY
Cobra Make, Engine: Time Machines Motorsports LLC- Superformance Dealer
Posts: 4,496
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With that leaf spring wrapped in the nastiest stuff known to man! I had the last N.O.S. leaf spring from AC when Autokraft took over all of the spares and the stuff that the spring is wrapped in gets all over everything! I have never seen such insidious, creeping black gunk in my life!
That is one thing we did NOT replicate with the Superformance MK II cars!
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01-17-2017, 03:55 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Carlsbad,
Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: SAI FIA, 289HP (5-bolt), 48IDA Webers
Posts: 1,244
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Here is what the stock original hardware looks like.....the comp car parts are different.
Last edited by CompClassics; 01-17-2017 at 04:03 PM..
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01-17-2017, 05:16 PM
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CompClassics Thanks
Could I get you to measure from under the head to the end of the shoulder?
It appears that the washer is just a flat washer. Do you know if the threads are BSF or Whitworth thread?
What is different on the comp cars?
Thanks Mark
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01-17-2017, 05:27 PM
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Thanks Dan I kind of thought they should be soft. The plans that I am working off of they say a good substitute to use is a grade 8 shoulder bolt. But I thought to use it in single shear they would maybe brake off. On your cars is the washer that hold the A arm on just a flat washer?
Mark
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01-17-2017, 06:45 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Manchester,
NH
Cobra Make, Engine: AK1085 (302), HTM111 (427 Comp), CSX2375R (289 Comp) and 427S/C
Posts: 18,833
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Nice job John..... it looks much like the spring pin? No?
Mark, I used a modified grade 8, with heim adjustment, steel spacers and additional brackets on frame, running for several years now.
Last edited by 1985 CCX; 01-17-2017 at 07:33 PM..
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01-17-2017, 06:46 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAStuart
Thanks Dan I kind of thought they should be soft. The plans that I am working off of they say a good substitute to use is a grade 8 shoulder bolt. But I thought to use it in single shear they would maybe brake off. On your cars is the washer that hold the A arm on just a flat washer?
Mark
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The road spring and upright assemblies carry most of the loads. I know of original cars that suffered grave control arm problems from factory welds failing, tie down/tow chain damage, severe rusting (one tube rusted because a poor weld didn't seal the assembly) a tube down to almost no wall thickness left, poorly engineered owner modifications, and or in some combination crash damage and yet the frame mounts and pins were still in good condition.
I would recommend doing research on every fastener application in any vehicle suspension system. Steel companies and fastener companies offer help in making material and properties selections but be warned they will probably still leave final decisions to the user for legal reasons.
Some really important things to consider:
1) Just because a fastener is marked and or sold as “Grade such and such”, doesn’t mean it is right for your application.
a. Specifications revolve around a few characteristics and the one that is important for the application you have in mind might not be one of those specifications. Examples: A medium range bolt might bend or stretch while an ultra high strength one might break as its failure happens.
b. Just because a bolt is marked “Grade whatever” doesn’t mean it is. Counterfeiting fasteners is a multiple billion dollar a year industry on its own.
2) Know where your fasteners really come from. Just as “Grades” are faked so are manufactured by names. The genuine company has lots to lose if its products fail in use while the counterfeiter doesn’t.
What you are calling a washer is a thick mild steel disc and captures the end of the a-arm bushing on the threaded end of the pin side. The thread end of the pin is BSF.
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Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.
Last edited by Dan Case; 01-17-2017 at 08:13 PM..
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01-17-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompClassics
Here is what the stock original hardware looks like.....the comp car parts are different.
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To add to John's comments, Shelby American did develop more robust parts for some racing applications, spring eye bolts come to mind, but the Shelby team did more service and inspection of those parts to forestall premature failures than most people would do for a street car.
SAI didn’t just replace some bolts in the front suspensions. They added a coordinated set of modifications to stabilize the whole front end for endurance racing.
One SAI modification that greatly stabilized the front control arms was the addition of a cross bar (tube) to triangulate the assembly. (Even the second works Dragonsnake got this modification over time.) That makes the lower assembly much more rigid. To stabilize the road spring they welded in sections of key stock so more than four bolts kept the spring from being able to rotate about its center if the four bolts were not sufficient, and they were not on rough road courses. SAI added bracing to the rack and pinion steering mounting system to firm that system up also.
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Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.
Last edited by Dan Case; 01-17-2017 at 07:40 PM..
Reason: add detail
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01-17-2017, 06:55 PM
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Thanks for posting that John!
Larry
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01-17-2017, 07:54 PM
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Location: Plymouth,
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Cobra Make, Engine: MidStates, 351C, 4spd, 9"
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I assume one side of the bolt head is ground or milled down to fit into the notched portion of the AArm spacer sleeve end?
This was done to make the assy. tool free on one end?
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"It's not about getting from point A to point B. It is the point"
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01-17-2017, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krausewich
I assume one side of the bolt head is ground or milled down to fit into the notched portion of the AArm spacer sleeve end?
This was done to make the assy. tool free on one end?
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One side of the head is milled flat down to the diameter of the shank. On end the pin heads look D shaped. AC Cars did similarly with spring eye bolts. In each application a corresponding pocket is machined to mate with the flats. The mating pocket in control arm mounts is large and robust. The mating feature in front spring trunions is pretty robust. The weakest application is the rear upright which has a very small, in comparison, locking feature. The rear lock features are normally so small and shallow that the use of a high powered impact tool to install nuts can spin the pins and shear the lock features completely off the rear uprights.
__________________
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.
Last edited by Dan Case; 01-17-2017 at 08:03 PM..
Reason: add detail
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01-17-2017, 11:06 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Carlsbad,
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Cobra Make, Engine: SAI FIA, 289HP (5-bolt), 48IDA Webers
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As Jeff & DAN stated above it was very similar to the leaf spring to upright fastener except that the leaf spring bolt was hollow to allow for a grease fitting and lubrication. There was a flat machined onto the bolt head and a corresponding tab was on the suspension pick up point to trap the bolt from rotating in the bore of the pick up point. If the bolt was allowed to rotate a groove would start to wear into the shank of the bolt causing a weak area that could fail.
Jeff,
The race part was fabricated from military grade hardware with similar modifications to fit into the suspension pick up points.
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01-17-2017, 11:09 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Carlsbad,
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Cobra Make, Engine: SAI FIA, 289HP (5-bolt), 48IDA Webers
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I'll see if I have some time tomorrow to measure the hardware.
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01-18-2017, 08:07 AM
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John That would be great. I would like to thank everyone for posting. There is some good and interesting things to be learned here.
Mark
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01-18-2017, 08:35 AM
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Dan the thick disk (flat washer) was what I originally thought. I was told by someone that had some of the original pins. They thought the washers were something special. They also said that they did not have any or know what they looked like.
So I assume the washer tightens tight to the shoulder of the pin. The length of the shoulder controls how much the metalastik bush is compressed. This is where the numbers did not add up. This is why I also thought the washer had a special shape.
Mark
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01-18-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAStuart
Dan the thick disk (flat washer) was what I originally thought. I was told by someone that had some of the original pins. They thought the washers were something special. They also said that they did not have any or know what they looked like.
So I assume the washer tightens tight to the shoulder of the pin. The length of the shoulder controls how much the metalastik bush is compressed. This is where the numbers did not add up. This is why I also thought the washer had a special shape.
Mark
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It was a purpose made retainer and not a standard flat washer. Yes, when you tighten the nut this part captures the steel sleeves inside the bushings.
__________________
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.
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