MSD Failure

[frankym]

I recently had my 427 side oiler tuned up, new wires, plugs and points. I was running a dual point accel set up. After lots of backfire and the points vibrating out of tolerance, i had my mechanic install the MSD 6AL, blaster coil and billet distributor. Not sure about the pick up or crank trigger etc, but the white wire is not being used from the control box. By the way, the first control box that the mechanic received was DOA. The second one was fine and he sent me on my way.

It drove fine for about 30 miles, and i put it away and didn't drive her again until the following weekend, car starts up, my wife and I went out and when we stopped along the way, the car wouldn't restart. I checked for spark and disconnected the center wire on the cap and cranked her but got no arc. Went to the local ATV and purchased another 6AL control box. Installed her, vrooom, car starts, runs strong etc. After testing to see that it would start and restart, I was comfortable. Next morning, nothing, no spark, plenty of crank but no spark.

Car charges fine with constant 13.8 volts from the system, why is this box failing, and how do i now unload 2 dead control boxes, ATV said they don't take these back right up front, now i have 500 worth of useless control boxes and no solution in sight, my wife is ready to send this car off a cliff with me in it, please help!!

my phone number is 212 716 6770 or email at fmm204@stern.nyu.edu.

[ERA535]

I have a friend who is using the 6AL box in his FE and is experiencing the same thing you are.....sometimes it cuts out and no spark. He had the box tested and they found the rev limiting plug was the cause....so he removed it and so far so good.
You never know....

[jwoodard]

Check for a good ground.

Jim

[frankym]

thanks guys, I have a really strong ground to the engine block and there is at least one strap from the chasis to the block. The rev limiter theory sounds interesting, i know the box doesn't work without the chip/prong in there, and if they remove the rev limiter, then I will have the MSD 6 not the AL, so not sure what to expect from MSD tomorrow. Pretty pathetic though if this is just a string of defective units. Also, the box that I bought at ATV was so obviously already used, returned and repackaged, I say this because there was a paint chip on one of the corners that could have only happend through mishandling. Either way, I have a very unformfortable feeling toward MSD at this point. Also, a fixed unit doesn't sit well with me either since it was probably just a bad production run which might mean that other problems are very soon to follow.

[Jeff Frigo]

You should have called MSD from the start. They would have sent you out a brand new one and let you know what your problem was. Ive talked to them on the phone before when I thought I had a ignition problem (turned out to be a fuel problem), they were very helpful and were ready to send me out a new unit.


Jeff

[frankym]

I hope MSD can figure out what is causing the ignition to prematurely fail, this happened yesterday (Saturday) and getting thier techies on the phone was not an option and getting them to ship me another box wouldn't helm since I was stuck on the side of the road. This is definitely an electrical problem, just not sure if it is confined to the box itself or if there is something in the wiring. I have been using my mechanic for 10 years and he is extremely thorough, so I believe the rest of the components are correct and installed properly, probably that very rare combination of other factors that is causing the problem. time will tell. as it turned out, i broke down in front of a man's garage and he had a cheetah, hadn't even heard of that before, but it was GM's cobra, very interesting car and surprised i never heard of it. Hope I don't tangetalize this thread too much!

[ERA535]

I was told that the 6AL box would work without the limiter chip plugged in....

[Jeff Frigo]

It WILL work without the chip, I have done it before, You just dont have any limiter.


Jeff

[Rick Parker]

A good item if you do not already have them are the vibration isolators that mount on each corner. These boxes do not like vibration, shock or excessive heat. You might re-evaluate where it is being mounted with regard to heat, give the fact that youare running a 427 FE (High heat source). I once had a fresh coil go bad and attempted to blame it on the control box. The amount of current that these boxes develop and the fast rise time necesitate that the ENTIRE primary and secondary system be in top condition.
They will even burn through the top of the rotor and into the distributor shaft seeking a ground circut in lieu of going to the plugs through the cap and wires. Recheck the power source,
have you removed the ballast resistor or resistor wire feeding
the switched power to the box since you removed the dual point
distributor? Pull the (non switched) power (10 gauge red wire) direct from the starter solinoid (hot side). The MSD product is one of the best available. EACH control box is put through a burn in cycle for several hours under simulated operating conditions
before it is packaged for sale. These symptoms often turn out to be something minor that create a larger problem.
Good luck chasing ignition gremlins!
Rick

[frankym]

Spoke with MSD today, they didn't really provide much in the way of suggestions except to say that I should send the boxes back. After pleading with him, I was able to get the tech guy to tell me that I might be getting voltage spikes and I should purchase the MSD 8830 capacitor which is supposed to handle up to 26000 volt spikes. Still doesn't seem like the solution since the control box has surge protection inside the box. My electrical system is providing a constant 13.8 volt charge, I have a new Die Hard 900 CCA battery, solid ground from box to block, power from box to starter solenoid.

There is a ballast resistor still hooked into the electrical system, I think the cooling fan is hooked to it. My mechanic said that the ballast resitor cannot be shorting the box, in fact MSD instructions say that the ballast resistor in the system is ok. MSD said that their turnaround is between 10-15 days but he would try to reduce it to 1 week. Very troubling to have to wait this long for an incomplete solution. I strongly believe that the box will be better when it comes back, as I have a strong suspicion that this string of boxes was just put together poorly, remember the first box that the mechanic got from MSD wouldn't even start the car from the get go, so in the mean time, I am gathering as much support as possible.

Somebody claimed that the box will work without the rev limt prongs inserted. I am pretty sure that it won't run at all. In fact when I installed the 2nd box, I cranked and cranked and thought I was never going to figure out the problem and then I remembered that I didn't put the chip in, started after 3 turns.

SOmebody else told a story about how this same thing happened to them and they learned that it was the rev limit that was screwed up when MSD inspected the box.

genuinely appreciate the help from ALL of you.

[Flyin_Freddie]

Frankym...I have an MSD6AL on my Superformance. The white wire from the control unit is your tachometer feed. Connect this wire to your tach to provide input.

So far as your problems are concerned, I've had no problems with mine, so far anyway, in over 2000 miles. Starts readily, effectively limits RPM to the value on the crystal, etc. Mine is mounted on top of the passenger footwell inside the engine bay. The box is isolated with rubber vibration dampers, and heat has not been no problem so far.

I am suspect of the backfire and vibration you talked about with your original dual point set up. Have you remedied those problems yet? Simply replacing your ignition with an MSD unit won't correct those problems (in my opinion), and may be the root cause of your problems with the MSD box.

MSD6AL's are run by the NASCAR teams and believe me, if there was something wrong with them, they'd be out on their ear. Doesn't seem to be the case.
Good luck...but, I'd suspect your problem doesn't originate with MSD. Keep looking and let us know what turns up.

[frankym]

thanks freddie, I think I will definitely relocate the box to the inside of the car, perhaps rubber o-rings can reduce vibration and keep a layer of air between the box and the firewall. The points vibrating loose i think was just a matter of them not being installed tight enough. The white wire is for the magnetic pick up, it's either the white, or the 2 wires (purple and green). On mine the designated wire for the tach is blue and it goes directly into the side of the box, it did work the way it was installed, rev limit and all. The white is simply taped up. Just concerned about the time delays and unable to pin point the problem.

[Jeff Frigo]

I have the exact same box that you have. I personally HAVE!!! run this unit without the chip, it runs fine, just without the rev. limiting feature.

MSD have the best ignitions on the market, my engine builder who builds pro-stock motors wouldn't use anything else. You have a problem somewhere else in your car.

Good luck, let us all know what the real problem was when you find it.


Jeff

[mr bruce]

Frankym, what was the guy's name that had the Cheetah ?

[frankym]

spoke to MSD this evening and the steps they walked me through are as follows:
1. remove center wire from dist. Cap
2. lay wire on side near metal
3. disconnect green and violet union and
4. jump the green and violet (from the leads of box)
5. each time contact is made between green and violet, center wire wire should arc

6. if that doesn’t work, keep the allegator clips attached from green and violet, jump the red (small wire) from the box directly to the battery, see if the wire arcs

7. box has a melted chip inside the box, replace it and reinstall with capacitor.

I am not certain that I understand what all of this will prove, if I can get spark or not, the fact remains that the box is fried. How will manually getting a spark isolate the problem. MSD said short of adding the in line capacitor, there isn't much else they can think of, the most frustrating part of this is that if I install the reparied box with the new capacitor and it fails again, I am out again for 3 weeks, there must be other measures to take to ensure that I do everything possible to avoid these recurring failures! Any thing else to check? Maybe when I get it running there are things I should me monitoring like using a volt meter or something to check the voltage, get a new voltage regulator etc>?

[ArubaCobra]

the MSD unit will run without the chip. Don't be so down on MSD, they have a great product, I run their units on several of my vehicles. Including my Prostock probe which run a 16 volt system. I only had one problem because I hooked up a wire wrong once, and they fixed it free of charge. what they are trying to do by asking you to short the violet and green wires etc. is trying to isolate the problem. for instance, if it sparks when you short the wires , but there is no spark when they are plugged into the distributor that would indicate a problem with the pickup in the dist. Look at it this way, once both your units are fixed, you will have a spare, and then according to murphys law you won't have anymore problems, unless of course you don't carry the spare unit with you

[BOB SLAMA]

One thing I have not heard anyone mention was the plug wires. As I remember, the instructions in my 6AL mentioned to NEVER use solid wire conductor spark plug wires. You have to use some type of radio suppression resistance wire. Mine has been running over 2000 miles. I am also using the MSD capacitor, along with the Blaster coil. Box is mounted on transmission hump under the dash. Good luck.

[frankym]

This was an interesting link I found, note the part about adding a capacitor: http://www.motorsportsdigest.com/install-msd1.htm

Without a doubt, the MSD Ignition is the most successful Ignition ever. The same units used by teams in NASCAR and the NHRA are available for use on the streets. Fortunately, you don't have to have a race car or be an expert installer to install one. While the installation is very simple, there are still several little "tricks of the trade" that can help the install go a little easier and add a little life to the system.

Mounting the MSD:
While you will often hear that you must mount the unit in an absolutely dry place, a little splash of water is perfectly fine. I'm not saying that you want to put it where it will be regularly hit by water; most under hood locations will be fine. Even hitting it with the hose while washing under the hood won't be a problem, so put it where it will look and fit best. All this being said, avoid mounting the unit up-side-down. This will prevent it from filling up with water, which could be a potiential problem. Normally, any water that does enter the unit will drain out of the bottom - which is why it isn't "sealed" to the rest of the case.




The one thing that you do want to avoid is excessive heat. Mild radiant heat isn't a problem, but putting it right over a set of headers is not going to be a good idea. So as long as you mount the unit in a reasonable location, and in a reasonable position, anything else goes.

Wiring it up:
Hooking up an MSD is really very simple. The large red wire goes to the battery (after going to a capacitor first), and the large black wire goes to ground. The small red wire goes to ignition (+12 volts with the key on), and the small white wire goes to points (the wire that used to trigger the coil). The remaining two wires, orange and black, will go to the coils positive and negitive terminals. Make sure that nothing else is connected to either the orange or black wires but the coil. Also, make sure that any wires that get extended have at least the same size or larger wire used. If the MSD is installed under the hood (near its battery connection) it isn't necessary to use a fuse. If you will be installing it in any location that requires you to entend the length of the wire, you should add either a fuse or a circuit breaker.

Adding a Capacitor:
Here's the part you may have heard of, but never paid much attention to. Adding a capacitor when installing an MSD offers several advantages and is very benificial to a long lasting ignition. MSD calls it a "Noise Filter," but it is simply just a cap. Typically, these are used to help filter out any radiated noise from the ignition to your electrical system which can cause some radiated noise through your stereo. For most of us this won't be a problem. The important thing is that this cap also filters the power going to the MSD. This will prevent power surges and spikes from damaging the MSD. Things like jump-starting your car are very tough on sensitive parts, but using a cap will provide the protection you need.

At this point, you have the option of either ordering the MSD part (PN 8830), which is what I recommend, or going to your local electronics part store and picking one up. If you do the latter, you will need one of at least 25,000 microferrad and 16 volts. Anything bigger will be fine, but any larger than 50,000 microferrads will simply be overkill. Just make sure that it's at least 16 volts and not just a 12 volt cap.

To install the cap, simply run the power lead for the MSD to the positive terminal of the cap. Then run a wire from this same terminal on the cap over to the battery. At this point you have two options: You can either run the negitive lead from the MSD much the same way - to the cap and then to ground, or you can simply ground the MSD and then ground the cap - independently. (Both methods are shown below) Either way will work just as well, just go with whatever install method you think will fit your install best.




Understand that adding the cap may be the one thing that makes the differance between an ignition that lasts the life of the car -vs- one that only lasts to the end of the year. After having installed around a hundred of these Ignitions, I can assure you it really does make all the difference. The only two I've ever seen go bad, didn't have a cap installed.

More options:
There are so many things you can do with an MSD, make sure that you take advantage of some of its flexibility. Some of the options are multi-stage rev limiters, timing controls, shift lights, etc... Many of these things are designed to work in conjunction with other non-ignition related items, such as Nitrous, Superchargers, Line Locks, Drag Racing, etc... The thing here is to not limit yourself. A good ignition system is much like a good alarm. It should do more than just the basics. The same way the alarm should lock and unlock your doors, your ignition should do all it can.

[CobraEd]

Is it possible you have a bad coil with an internal short. This would draw too many amps and cause the MSD box to overheat. This may be why you couldn't keep your points set earlier too.

Ed

[JAM1775]

Have you tried the MSD website ??
www.msdignition.com
They have a troubleshooting guide which includes a complete wiring manual. Then you should not need the tech line. I printed the guide . I can fax if you have a problem getting it. If you have blown more than one box you may have a wiring problem. I agree you should not use solid core spark plugs wires. The chip means nothing in/out it is just a rev limiter. Mine loosens alot so I slightly bent the prongs and use a elctrical tie to keep it snug. My unit is mounted near the engine on the standard rubber mounts. ..2 years no problems. As I sometimes had ignition problems,I often blamed the "Box" but usually found another problem in my ignition. Perhaps the ignition relay should be replaced. That is an inexpensive item which could cause no spark
to the ignition circuit. Check all those wires. While at it I would change the starter realy also. Total cost perhaps $20 for both. They do fail and heat is the culprit. I run the standard Duraspark ignition/MSD 6AL..no ballast ... no problems. Do you have a cut off/anit-theft ignition switch ? Could be the cuplrit. Also check "inside" the three pronged jacks from your Duraspark distributor to the box. There is also a two pronged jack that is in line between the box and the coil low side. Blast these inside the boots with electrical contact cleaner. Make sure your coil is mounted upright and check those low voltage wires and connects. Just for fun......it is often something right there...not hard to fix that can raise hell with our ignition systems. And it could very well be on the low 12 volt side of the system..low voltage but big spark problems ! The intermittant symptons sound like a loose wire, low side arching, an exposed wire, bad ground, bad wiring INSIDE ditributor or heat related part failure (relays). I agree MSD is a great ignition system. Bad things can blow the box too. I bet it's right there looking back at you.
I hope it is !!