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cryogenic process
Heard some interesting comments about
Cryogenic processing of rods and cranks, the process takes the metal slowly down to -300 and then back up to +300, hardening the metal?, I guess?. Thoughts........ |
Perry, It must be good since that is the same process that Ted Williams got from his son!
Cheers, Pete |
Funny, the other way to harden metal is to bring it up to 1400 degrees and rappidly cool it.
Not saying it doesn't work. It's just "weird" to me. -steve in nj- |
It has been way too many years since my material science classes, but as I recall, materials behave very differenrly at cold vs. hot temps. - usually you anneal, or soften material ~300 C.
On most metals, recrystallization (or annealing) occurs at elevated temps. According to my very old, possible outdated text, "Elements of Materials Science & Engineering", by van Vlack: "The greater thermal vibrations of the lattice at high temps permits a reordering of the atoms into less distorted grains.":o I believe this translates into: materials soften as they reach their recrystallization temperature ~ 200-400 degrees C, depending on the type of metal. As I said, my experience is old and maybe newer materials/processes behave differently with the initial cryogenic process. I would beleive that as you raise the temp back up to 300, the material would start to soften - not what I believe you want. Please have someone more up to date on material science correct me. Regards, Keith |
BigTimeCold
Cryogenics is used in the gun trade pretty steadily, principally on barrels but for receivers, interior parts, etc. as well. Similar in approach to heat treating - aim is to bring molecular structure into a more uniform state - but without the restructuring/alteration/modification of the molecules themselves that can happen in less-than-perfect heat treatments. In a nutshell, it's supposed to make harder, stronger, more uniform grain structure in the metal. I suppose I'll get arguments about this, but I think proper heat treatments work substantially better. Want a hard crank surface? - nitride it.
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Supposedly this is better than nitride because it restructures throughout, not just the surface.
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Better depends on the application. Making a barrel as rigid as possible goes a long way toward accuracy...making a crankshaft or connecting rod as rigid as possible makes them susceptable to brittle failure. That's why you nitride journal surfaces - some flex in the crank absorbs the shock loads without failure, where deep hardening foments cracks and, ultimately, bad breakage.
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Good reading on this subject, scroll down to cryogenic process.
http://www.rpmrons.com/detonation.html |
the other method
The third method I know of other than cryo or heat treat, is vibratory metal de-stressing. They vibrate your parts at a given frequency which is supposed to let the internal stresses relax. There was a reputable engine builder in the town I used to live in who swears by this method. Cranks and gears, he claimed, saw the most longevity benefit. Metallax I believe it was called.
The one other method I would like to see the results of is nitrocarburizing. Like a heat treat, but in a salt bath. It coats the surface in a nitrogen / carbon matrix which hardens the surface and makes it slick. Burlington is a local shop that does it in socal. I don't know anybody who has tried it though. It leaves the surface smooth and black, like a really good parkerizing, but smoother. |
I know a guy with a SCORE class 8 off road truck. He has started having his brake rotors cryo treated. Before, his rotors were either paper thin or gone by the end of the race. Now he at least has SOME meat left on them. I am a believer in the process after witnessing the benefits first hand.
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CRYO treatment
Check out :
300 Below Cryogenic Tempering Services 2999 Parkway Dr. Decatur, IL 62526 (800) 550-2796 e-mail : j.havener@300below.com They're doing my crank for about $130. They can do your whole engine including flywheel for $562.00. They charge $2.50 per pound for your rotors. Talk to Jeromy, it works. Ed |
There you have it. PH, that is good reading. Obviously the process is farther along than I thought. I think the real key is to go to sombody with lots of experience, since the methods are CRITICAL to end results.
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answer to some questions
Thanks for putting me on here Ed, I hope to talk to you more!
If any of you have any questions about cryogenics feel free to contact me or check out our website If any of you want more information, feel free to contact me at our phone number. Sincerely, Jeromy this is my correct e-mail address website for info |
Your right turnpike, I'm still in a learning curve on this subject.
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Cannot comment regarding engine component effectiveness, but have had experience with brake rotors. All I can say is... it works!!!
Tested them on a fleet of ambulance who had an above average appetite for brake rotors. These guys were getting 2100 miles out of a new set of rotors before they warped or turned blue. A noticeable improvement in both durability and performance with the “frozen” rotors we sent them and no disadvantages (aside from cost). Check out http://www.frozenrotors.com/index.html for more info. I have no experience with this company, but they have a good website. So has anyone cryogenically treated their golf clubs yet? 289FIA |
more info
Here is an article I did recently on cryogenics for SAE motorsports engineering:
http://www.motorsportsengineering.sa...-cryogenic.htm Just do dispell some myths about cryogenic tempering really quick. Cryo-Tempering does not harden the materials, it simply closes the grain sturcture of metals and also reduces the stresses of the materials from initial machining and manufacturing. If any one needs more info give me a call at 1-800-550-2796. Jeromy |
Thank you, Jeromy! And Ed too - this is a fine example why this site is so damn good. Get real time info and sources for tangible improvements. Outstanding.:D
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More Info
I have had quite a bit of e-mails regarding cryogenic tempering since my last post. If anyone would like hard copy information mailed to them e-mail me at jhavener@300below.com and I will mail you an info packet free of charge.
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I would love to find a place that has done a scientific study on this process. I work for a micro-machine shop and we are all the time testing this type stuff.. and all of our engineers say it does not work.. and is a gimick.... I would love to think it works.. can anybody show me any studies other then the people that do this for a living...i mean, real scientific data.....show me
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Yes but....
.. would it work on a Raki hang over? I know there have been more than a few morning that I could use my molecules in a more uniformed, stress relieved state:LOL: :LOL:
Seriously, good reading. Is it spring yet? |
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