Refresh on a 302: Any Advice or build secrets?

[blykins]

I don't know why I got a bad rap here, for recommending the right way to do something.

If you guys bought a brand new engine from me, would you want me to just go find a 35k mile core, roll some new bearings in it, run a ball hone down through the cylinders, wipe the cylinders down with paper towels, and throw a set of heads on it?

I understand that this is supposed to be a freshen-up, but the same underlying key components still apply here. Are the cylinders going to have ridge in them? Maybe, maybe not. Are the cylinders going to be straight? Maybe, maybe not. If you roll new bearings in, are they going to have the same bearing clearances as before? Maybe, maybe not.

I apologize if I came across too crass....but I'm a stickler for perfection. And in my eyes, if you're going to take an engine down to the point that you're going to take it down to, you might as well check everything else out and learn some more "stuff."

[Wbulk]

Regarding the oil pump rod, if you pull the pump, the rod should just come out with the pump or drop out. I like the kind that comes with the small circle retainer clip on the shaft. It keeps the shaft from pulling out of the pump when you pull the dist. at some later date, so the rod does not fall to the bottom of the pan Some of the HD rods may have a bigger shaft in that area to serve that purpose. I would like to hear from guys that have used the HV pump with the HD rod. The shaft is still the same size where it enters the pump and the dist., so the weak points still exist, right? I just have never used the HV pump from all the know problems. I even read a warning on Comp Cams site some time back on this problem.

There are no issues with the dist. timing if just changing the pump. The dist. gear is still engaged with the cam gear. However, if you are doing the heads then the dist. has to come out.

[Wbulk]

blykins, I understand where you are coming from and you have helped a lot of people. I was thinking there are so many issues Doug may not know. However, he has the desire and is willing to to read and lean, so good for him. I respect the guys that are willing do the job. Yes, some make mistakes and it costs them, but there are risks and rewards. As I see it too many skills are being lost or never learned today.

Wayne

[blykins]

Wayne, I agree 200%. I just don't want to see him have issues down the road....

[ERA Chas]

Doug,
No where do you state why you're 'refreshing' certain areas. Did you leak-down the motor to determine bad ring seal? You state it has strong oil pressure-so why change rod bearings? Do the pistons all have different deck heights? You give no reason for doing what seems to be unnecessary work. ESPECIALLY in the car. Just because Clayton says he can doesn't mean you or I can-he's been professional at the top rung for 40+ years.
Further thoughts about honing: Without trying to insult you, your in-car bottle hone idea is laughable. I worked at World and we had the Rottler hone running 10 hours a day. Diamond stones with speed and feed set to a proprietary RA and hatch. Every block had a BHJ honing plate ($412 for SBF) torqued to spec in place. Those holes were ROUND. The next day, after assembly, that motor went on the dyno and by the third or fourth pull after 20 minutes at 2500RPM, went to redline, generally three or four times. They leaked-down less than 10%. Think you'll achieve that? You're probably better off how ever they are now-or pull the motor and do it right.
Now a head swap in-car is a different matter. Changing to aluminum from iron is a fine idea. I did it and the hardest part is protecting the car from damage while working. I would not do a cam swap in-car though I agree it can be done in many Cobras. I'd like to have better visual observation of the degreeing process than you get with fenders in the way.
The 1.7 rockers require careful measurement of coil bind and rocker throat clearance, not just p to v clearance or v to w clearance.
David's advice was sound but he forgot to tell you that his pan procedure was engine on stand, up-side-down. The gasket won't stick to the block rail in the car.
Look, if you need help understanding what 'zero-lash' is, how are you going to dial-bore the cylinders every 90 degrees at top and bottom of bores? And does your budget allow for a BHJ plate? If not you're just running a hone up and down crooked holes and making them wider crooked holes.
I gotta go with Brent, you like to be hands-on? Do it in a way that gives you positive results and satisfaction, not half-assed. And don't do 'make-work', that's the best way to waste time and money. Make improvements in power and reliability and if the basics measure and test good, leave them alone.

[Jerry Clayton]

I'm not going to go into why or why not-----

But, I do have to comment on a few things---
If you are going to change the heads, do it in the car--just be careful with the fenders--You are more likely to damage the car pulling the engine than working on it in the car---

Just keep in mind that as you go along, you may get to a point with what you find that will result in you removing the engine---

As to the use of dial bore guages and torque plates ----doesn't happen in this case--you are removing pistons and reinstalling in the same holes--sizes won't be an issue
The use of a flex hone doesn't require a tirque plate---they are flexable and do not change the straightness or crookedness or out of round of a cylinder and THAT is there biggest selling point and reason for using them---

If you are removing the oil pan to fix a leak, you should check the bearings for wear patterns, this will require removing the oil pump and you can change pump or drive while doing that--you might want to use High PRESSURE pump for the added plumbing of an remote filter---

ERA Chas---If I had any engine with 10% leak down it would come apart---I'm sure you must mean 2 %

[DAVID GAGNARD]

The way I see it, Dangerous Doug has a few minor things with his engine he wants to fix and at the same time do some upgrades..He wants to do them himself and learn about engines as he goes, BEEN THERE/DONE THAT.......there is nothing more rewarding than being able to say you did the engine yourself.......my first time was 36 years ago when I did a cam/intake/carb/header upgrade on my otherwise stock Ford Truck (302), did it kinda like Doug's suggesting, in the truck,didn't even take the hood off, PITA, but I was very young and energetic, would never do it again without pulling the engine......live and learn by your mistakes!!!!!!!!!

I don't agree with all what Doug's planning to do and how he is planning to do it, but, he didn't ask that question, he just asked for help in doing it the way he wants to do it and if he's dead set on doing it a certain way, then let him do it that way...
I'll offer him advise if he ask's for it and let it go at that....
I'm guessing he has a basically stock 302 bottom end, don't know any different,and the in-the-car honing method for his intended purpose will suffice for what I would consider a "standard rebuild/freshen".....
We're not talking about a 9000rpm NASCAR engine, just a 302 with a cam/cylinder head upgrade.......

David

[Dangerous Doug]

First, a mere matter of social grace: If you preface something with, "I don't mean to insult you..." chances are what you are saying is, indeed, insulting.

And as for "my" idea of honing in the car as being "laughable", it wasn't my idea. Actually, the idea came from a seasoned mechanic friend of mine who used to drive GT-40's "back in the day", raced for Porsche, and is a personal friend of (Sir) Sterling Moss. He's a sharp guy and had done the in-car bottle brush hone to several vehicles, including his Mustang (he tells me it was a Ford mule given to him by Henry Ford Jr.?) that has never gone through a complete rebuild---and he still drives it.

As for why I am even thinking about putting new rings on? I think I'm burning some oil, but I'm not certain. I see some occasional light puffs of white smoke on start up, and I was planning on replacing my heads and resealing the oil pan (if I need to...) anyway, so while I had those off...

Why replace rod bearings? Well, they are cheap and while you have the rods off, why wouldn't you? Seems a better practice to replace bearings than put the old ones back on, but truly, I don't know what the "standard" practice would be (anyone care to comment about that?).

Blykins and Era_Chas: You've stated your opinions on how it should be done. I've read it so I understand your position. You really don't need to repeat it. I think you are right. The BEST way to do something like this is to pull the engine out of the car. However, that doesn't mean that it cannot be done in the car, perhaps with quite a bit more time crawling around on concrete, but could be done. Furthermore, I said I was thinking about doing this, not that I am. At any point in my assessment I can think, "Jeez, this is more technical than I have time for..." and then go buy a block from Summit Racing for $689.00 plus $100 shipping, cam bearings included, and find a good 347 stroker kit with H-beam rods and build it at my leisure. I would even need MORE advice doing that.

Life gets unexpectedly busy. I do know how quickly life can spin out of control and projects get sidelined. After getting my young son through two years of chemotherapy, me going in to kidney failure and getting a life-saving kidney transplant (one year ago this Wednesday) and working with a team of Stanford doctors and doing research on "intracranial hypertension" because the pressure inside my cranium is at the 98th percentile on the high side causing severe, debilitating headaches up to three times weekly, not to mention my extremely analytically intense job... Well, tinkering with a 302 to solve a few real or imagined problems sounds like fun. I am, though, a busy man.

So, I started this thread to see if some of the engine-building veterans could shed some light on the mechanics of engine building. It's not all common sense, and I know there is a wealth of knowledge here on Club Cobra. However, I may decide it's much more than I want to get into right now. I find it fun to discuss the process on this forum as long as the thread doesn't deteriorate into exchanging insults or jousting peacocks, each trying to prove they have the best set of tail feathers.

So, instead of "I don't mean to insult you...", perhaps we can try something like, "That's an interesting idea. I've always done it this way:"

I'm pretty sure it's called mutual respect.

Sigh...
DD

[blykins]

I prefer to call it "tough love"......I've been on here for 11-12 years now and consider most of you guys buddies and family. I usually don't sugar coat things.

As for taking it all the way down, I would do a compression test on it to see what condition everything is in. Puffs of smoke on a startup can be indicative of valve seals...so if you swap heads, you'll remedy that. If it does turn out to be the rings, then it's either a stuck ring, or the bores aren't straight (or worn) and a ball hone probably isn't going to fix that.

If the rod bearings need replaced, then it's simple enough to measure the journals and measure the ID of the rods with the new bearings to check clearances, but to do the mains, the crank needs to come out (I wouldn't trust Plastigage...never used it, never will)....which brings us back to square one.

[olddog]

I have a lot of back issues, so I'm concerned with your plan. Ergonomics is a big issue for everyone. If your young and in great shape things don't bother you, too much, but now I wonder how much of my back issues are do to all those things that didn't bother me back then. Most likely all of it.

You should consider the toll it will take on your back being bent over and lifting heavy parts with your arms stretched out. Forget the engine, who cares if it dies. It only takes money to replace it. Think about your health. No amount of money can fix back issues.

[olddog]

You need to talk to someone who knows how to hone. The cross hatch needs to be at the correct angle. Last time I tried it, my drill was too fast or I pumped up and down too slow. It takes some skill to get it right. Do it wrong and your rings will seal worse than a worn out engine.

I agree the puff of smoke at start is valve seals not rings.

As for rod bearings, short of abuse, a mild engine could not have worn them in 35K miles. New bearings could very well end up giving you more gap.

That said I would leave the rings alone. I would pull the rod caps and inspect the bearings visually. You could check a few with Plasti-gauge to verify they are not worn.

I have used plasti-gauge as a final second check, several times. It has always worked well for me. We also used it on the Model "A" Ford, to determine how many shims to remove, in order to keep the babbit bearings in tolerance. Never a problem with it. It is not as accurate as a mike. I like it for a second check.

If it were me, I wouldn't touch the bottom end, unless there was a problem. Then I would stroke it. If I could afford it, I would go aftermarket 4.125" bore block. They have better oiling and are stronger.

From the tests I have read, a mild 302 will have better low to mid range torque with the 165 heads, with only a slight high rpm improvement with the 185 heads. I still like the 185 heads better, and I'm not convinced that the too big of ports problem is completely correct. Every test and combination that I have the data for, they also went big on the cam. I don't think the 185 heads would hurt you with the mild cam, and you have better heads if you decide to stroke it later.

[Dangerous Doug]

OldDog: Seems like sound advice. I considered the valve guides, but wasn't sure enough oil could seep through. Even just replacing the heads I would have a lot of questions. I like the AFR 185's, and consider the 1.7 rockers (thinking of Crane roller rockers). That and a Edelbrock performer rpm airgap with my Holley 670 Street Avenger.

The 165's have shorter intake runners than my World Windsor Jr.'s (180), so for a performance gain the 185's seem the way to go. Any way to verify the valve clearance before I buy the AFR 185's?

DD

[xb-60]

Doug,
The first engine I rebuilt (some years ago now) was running well pre-rebuild and had good compression, but I was young and 'idealistic'. I had it honed by a local shop then put in new rings and bearings. I thought I was meticulous with cleanliness in the reassembly. After bedding-in, compression was down so I pulled it down again after only a couple of months for a rebore and crank grind. The new rings couldn't wear in to the oval shaped bores that the old rings had still been quite happy in, but the biggest lesson was learned looking at the new big-end and main shells. They were significantly scored due to inadequate cleaning at assembly. Oh, the other lesson was 'if it ain't broke....etc'.
Good luck, have fun and learn a lot with whatever you decide to do. It's also good therapy if you don't take it too seriously.
Cheers,
Glen

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

OldDog: Seems like sound advice. I considered the valve guides, but wasn't sure enough oil could seep through. Even just replacing the heads I would have a lot of questions. I like the AFR 185's, and consider the 1.7 rockers (thinking of Crane roller rockers). That and a Edelbrock performer rpm airgap with my Holley 670 Street Avenger.

The 165's have shorter intake runners than my World Windsor Jr.'s (180), so for a performance gain the 185's seem the way to go. Any way to verify the valve clearance before I buy the AFR 185's?

DD

AFR 165's with rocker studs would be the way to go. For 302 cubic inches, you need smaller port volume which means higher port velocity....otherwise you get an engine that can be a little "slow" on the bottom end. If you plan to stroke in the future, then I would consider the larger heads.

No way to verify piston/valve clearance before hand....but if you're running factory 5.0 pistons or similar, you won't have that much room for a higher lift cam.

[LoBelly]

An oldie but a goodie

400 HP 302 ci AFR 165 cc(Stock Cam)

If you already have a bit of lumpy cam it might be worth comparing it to the eventual lift profile with the stock cam and 1.7 rockers.

If you just bung in the 1.7s on top of the cam you have there may be clearance issues

Good luck - have fun

LoBelly

[Dangerous Doug]

Edits: posted this from my iPhone; thumb-typing has it's issues.

I plan on 185's unless I pull my current heads and identify obvious clearance issues---like flat-top pistons with little cut for valve clearance. Then I'd go with the 165's, but with the shorter intake runners (180 in current heads) is it possible that the change could actually create a performance drop? Are there sufficient gains with the AFR 165's heads in order to overcome the loses due to the shorter intake runners?

So, the first order of business is the wet/dry compression test, which I may try to squeeze into this weekend.

Question: I have a MSD mech-advance distributor. At cruising speed I think I can hear an intermittent miss. Each plug wire removal causes the expected sloppy rpm drop, so I don't suspect the wires. I suspect the magnetic module inside the distributor. What is the probability that the module has an intermittent electrical problem?

DD

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I plan on 185's unless I pull my current heads on identify obvious clearance issues---like flat-top pistons with little cut for valve clearance. Then I'd go with the 165's, but with the shorter intake runners (180 in current heads) actually create a performance drop? Are there sufficient gains with the AFR 165's heads to order the shorter intake runners?

So, the first order of business is the wet/dry compression test, which I may try to squeeze into this weekend.

Question: I have a MSD mech-advance distributor. At cruising speed I think I can hear an intermittent miss. Each plug wire removal causes the expected sloppy rpm drop, so I don't suspect the wires. I suspect the magnetic module inside the distributor. What is the probability that the module has an intermittent electrical problem?

DD

You wouldn't see a performance drop at WOT (with a 185cc vs 165cc head), but you could see some slugglishness at lower rpm operation. Of course you don't spend 100% of your time at WOT, so I would pick a head based on how you drive the car. For a street engine, I personally would not use a larger head. Keep in mind that a smaller head that flows more is the optimum situation. I have flow numbers for both the World 180cc head that you have and an AFR 165 and the AFR's outflow the World heads by about 20 cfm. That would be a difference (in both performance and throttle response) that you could feel.

As for your miss, try looking at some spark plugs. If you do have a sealing problem, you could have some fouled plugs.

[Dangerous Doug]

WOT = Wide-open Throttle (Sounds like the makings of a reality show...)

Yeah, I thought about the plugs and left that for when I planned to do the compression check, as I'll have them out.

Hey, great tip on the 302/400 hp article! Interesting article. Very similar to what I'm planning for my 302.

I've heard some debate on the AFR 165 vs the 185. Have these two ever been compared with the same shortblock spec's? I'm partial to the larger intake valves with the 185's, and they also recommend the Edelbrock Performer RPM or the Victor Jr intakes (I'm going with the Performer RPM, as mentioned before, as my driving, though spirited, tends to be on public roads...)

DD

DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Incidentally, in the 400hp 302 article, in the fourth paragraph they state that all they did (other than the AFR 165's and the 1.7 rockers) was a "a quick bottle brush hone to clean up the cylinder walls and a set of fresh rings and bearings".

Perhaps I'm not the laughable lunatic all of you seemed to think I am.

DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Found this 165/185 comparison on the AFR site:
AFR 165 cc vs. AFR 185 cc

The punch line in the article is that if you're running a stock cam and stock displacement run the 165's, but if you have some cam or increased displacement, go with the 185's.

DD