Refresh on a 302: Any Advice or build secrets?

[Dangerous Doug]

Okay, so I want to change the heads on my 302, as well as resealing the oil pan. I'm figuring for heads either AFR 185's or AFR 165's, depending upon the pistons (and clearance) I find when I pop the heads off. I have World Windsor Jr. right now. While I have the pan off and the heads off, I plan to pull the pistons and hone the cylinders and put new rings and rod bearings on. I am doing all this with the engine still installed.

However, I have never rebuilt or refreshed an engine before, though I've done quite a bit of auto mechanical work, and built my ERA 289 FIA myself.

The process I'm planning involves removing the heads and oil pan, pulling each piston out one at a time, honing with a bottle brush hone tool, installing new rings and rod bearings, testing the clearance with the first piston, and making my way from cylinder #1 to #8.

I've never done this before, and I have the requisite books on rebuilding Ford small blocks. However, I'm sure there is a ton of things I should do to do it correctly.

Thus, my query: I would like to hear everyone's advice on this project. Note that this engine was recently rebuilt (probably less than 35k on it and has strong oil pressure), and I want to limit the project to rings, heads, manifold (Performer RPM Airgap), rockers (I'm thinking 1.7's to give my mild cam a "goose"), and I'll change the water pump and the oil pump as well. I love to tinker with stuff, so don't tell me to buy a crate engine. I want to know what's inside what's under my hood.

So, any tricks of the trade?

DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Wow! No advice? No tasty build secrets? Nuthin'?

DD

[blykins]

Well, first piece of advice is that you shouldn't do it with the engine in the car.

Honing a block requires honing oil, and there will be lots of metal floating around. You will never be able to do it one at a time and keep everything clean.

Go ahead and pull the engine, strip it down, have the block professionally honed (a bottle hone on a drill will never give you a really nice finish for a modern ring seal, plus you'll never keep the cylinders straight like that), machined, hot tanked, then begin assembly.

[xb-60]

I agree with Brent. If you're stripping that far, the engine should come out. Once the honing is complete, a thorough clean is absolutely essential and you can't do that with the block still in the car.
BUT....35 000 miles? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Bearings maybe, but not new rings.
Cheers,
Glen

[Dwight]

pull the motor,

order a 347 stroker kit from Keith Craft, $1300.

Buy TF 195 or AFR heads, new cam to match the heads and cubic inches.

What brand rockers do you have?

New damper and flywheel. Have the damper, flywheel and stroker kit balanced.

Intake?
Carb?
450 to 480 hp.

Dwight

[*13*]

Leave well enough alone. Order a Weber kit. Plenty of tinkering & a good 20%+ boost in HP.

[bobcowan]

If the engine is good and makes good compression, I suggest leaving it alone.

However, I have done exactly what you're thinking of. I honed the cylinders and replaced the bearings with the engine in the car. It is certainly more difficult, and the results may not be as good. I would never do it again. Instead, I would pull the engine out and put it on a stand to do that kind of work.

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by *13*

Leave well enough alone. Order a Weber kit. Plenty of tinkering & a good 20%+ boost in HP.

VT? I thought you moved to Oregon?

Believe me, I'm thinking about it! (The Webers, that is. Native Californian and I like it.)

Well, everyone thinks I should just build/buy a stroker. My fun-fund is pretty focused on remodelling my home, so the Cobra isn't going to get more than about $3k of upgrades. Heads, manifold, rockers... I'm pushing $2k already.

Just trying to stay realistic here.

I like the idea of Webers, but a new 347 stroker isn't in the budget at the moment. Webers definately has "fun" written all over it, and when I pop the hood it would certainly increase the impression ratio...

Surprised I didn't get some engine-building tips, though. Part of this is learning about my engine, and what goes into building one.

So, I guess I'm back to reading through my "How to" book on SBF's... unless somebody wants to pipe in with some engine building knowledge?

DD

[brandx]

I for one am trying to figure out what the point is here. sounds like you have a very nice set up now as is. My thoughts go to picking up another block and starting on another new build. That way you can enjoy the build and your car at the same time.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

VT? I thought you moved to Oregon?

Believe me, I'm thinking about it! (The Webers, that is. Native Californian and I like it.)

Well, everyone thinks I should just build/buy a stroker. My fun-fund is pretty focused on remodelling my home, so the Cobra isn't going to get more than about $3k of upgrades. Heads, manifold, rockers... I'm pushing $2k already.

Just trying to stay realistic here.

I like the idea of Webers, but a new 347 stroker isn't in the budget at the moment. Webers definately has "fun" written all over it, and when I pop the hood it would certainly increase the impression ratio...

Surprised I didn't get some engine-building tips, though. Part of this is learning about my engine, and what goes into building one.

So, I guess I'm back to reading through my "How to" book on SBF's... unless somebody wants to pipe in with some engine building knowledge?

DD

What kind of tips are you looking for? Personally, I would throw a set of heads and a cam in your current engine and have fun.

[*13*]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

VT? I thought you moved to Oregon?

Believe me, I'm thinking about it! (The Webers, that is. Native Californian and I like it.)

Well, everyone thinks I should just build/buy a stroker. My fun-fund is pretty focused on remodelling my home, so the Cobra isn't going to get more than about $3k of upgrades. Heads, manifold, rockers... I'm pushing $2k already.

Just trying to stay realistic here.

I like the idea of Webers, but a new 347 stroker isn't in the budget at the moment. Webers definately has "fun" written all over it, and when I pop the hood it would certainly increase the impression ratio...

Surprised I didn't get some engine-building tips, though. Part of this is learning about my engine, and what goes into building one.

So, I guess I'm back to reading through my "How to" book on SBF's... unless somebody wants to pipe in with some engine building knowledge?

DD

The original plan was Oregon. A couple years ago we started having 2nd thoughts about OR & started doing research. We found & fell in love with VT. Here we are!
As far as tips? I think the post above is a good one. Find another block & build something up. There are a lot of good things to learn in building a motor. I've done the pulling apart & putting back together a couple times. I always miss some little detail that sometimes even just comes from experience. Like how to get a gasket to seal the first time. Then you en up pulling an oil pan out 2 or 3 times while lying on your back on the concrete floor, wishing you were out driving around or spending time with the family. If the car runs & there are no problems, let it run! There are plenty of blocks out there waiting to be rebuilt. The good part of it is that you can take your time, do it right, learn at your own pace & schedule & drive the car in the process. I still say Webers, though

[DAVID GAGNARD]

There are no "secret tips" or "magic" when building or re-building a engine......

but some common sense tips are cleanliness/cleanliness/cleanliness and double and triple check everything and I mean everything!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Jerry Clayton]

Doug--I have been reluctant to reply on this as I know that I will draw a lot of flack ---

But after 50+ YEARS of working on everything from farm tractors up to and including nitro fueled dragsters, funny cars, pro stocks and Indy cars, go karts (WKA national & world championships) dirt circle track racers, etc----

With the availability of the flex hones (bottle brush) and brake clean (no more gasolene soaked rags)---You can and I have done hundreds of times( without any problem that stemmed directly from ) done what you are asking about---

A few tips---have the crank turned to where the stuff won't drip on the throw and maybe cover up with towel---Dip the flexhone in some type of solventy mix(honing oil is good but maybe not available), mineral spirits works good, can be washed off with water--make a few passes up and down but concentrate at the top (ring travel region), when you have a pattern(clean looking but don't go until it is glazed)--spray down walls to wash away stuff with liberal amounts of brake clean---move to next hole---

After you have the area rinsed pretty clean, and wiped off around top and bottom areas of cylinder--before you install pistons, you need to use clean lint freee paper towels folded with some fresh oil on them to wipe the cylinder walls until towel stays clean( you will notice what I mean as you do this)

Of course you will also need a brush hone with the necessary grit to get the surface finish you need--- check and adjust if necessary the ring gap--

I would suggest doing a leak down check prior to disassembly of your engine and after its put back together--

If while doing this you find its not going smooth or you aren't happy with your work you can then remove the engine and do as others suggest--
Since you are reringing all 8 , don't put it back together until you are done cleaning all 8 holes--

And good luck---you got 35 minutes before next round-----


don't mix up the rod caps---

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I've done exactly what Jerry has said and what your planning on a couple of old tractors,it can be done.........but,before your half way done, you'll wish you had pulled the engine and may very well stop and pull it to finish the job..
by the time your finished, you will need back surgery and 2 new knees!!!!!
You have no idea how many times you'll be on the floor crawling under the car and how many times when you finally get into a position to do something, you'll realize you forgot a tool and have to crawl back out and get it....I hope your young and have a good back and knees....

David

[Jerry Clayton]

First call for all cars to semi finals---about 20 minutes left!!

[tkb289]

DD

Sounds like you have a lot of good suggestions and options. Complete tear down & rebuild, new motor build, or keep the bottom end pretty much intact and swap out the cam, heads & intake / carb. What you ultimately wind up doing, will likely be dictated by the budget.

One common theme is pull the motor. More work up front but easier in the long run. Want some help ??? ... would be glad to lend a hand

tkb

[Dangerous Doug]

Jerry & David: That's what I was looking for in terms of information. For someone that has never done this before but isn't afraid to try something out, what should I know.

Some things are intuitive: Pistons/rods back in the same hole facing the way they came out; don't reverse the cap on the rods and keep the rods with the caps; Pushrods back on the same lifter it came from; Don't scratch any journals; clean, clean, clean; torque once, check three times; check torque one more time before you button it up.

Some things are not, at least to me: How DO you get an oil pan gasket to seal the first time? You tested the piston clearance with puddy, so you know it clears, but how thick should the puddy to compensate for hot/cold metal fluctuations in the metal?

Just trying to learn from the collective mind here.

Am I really going to pull my engine apart this way? Maybe, maybe not. But I would love to learn a few things from the race veterans I conclude are on this site.

Any thing else?
DD

[Tom Cimino]

Seems to me you really want to build an engine. I get it. I love building engines. I'm also on a limited budget. That's why it took me three years to build my big block and why it's still on an engine stand almost two years after I first heard it run.

My advice to you is to leave your current engine alone while you decide what you really want to do. Then do it with another engine. That way you have the best of both worlds. You have a running car to enjoy while you are building an engine. Take your time. Learn all you can. Half the fun is in the learning and planning. It is very satisfying to hear your new engine fire up for the first time. You won't regret it.

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by tkb289

DD

Sounds like you have a lot of good suggestions and options. Complete tear down & rebuild, new motor build, or keep the bottom end pretty much intact and swap out the cam, heads & intake / carb. What you ultimately wind up doing, will likely be dictated by the budget.

One common theme is pull the motor. More work up front but easier in the long run. Want some help ??? ... would be glad to lend a hand

tkb

Of course! Once I figure out what the heck I want to do....

DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by Tom Cimino

Seems to me you really want to build an engine. I get it. I love building engines. I'm also on a limited budget. That's why it took me three years to build my big block and why it's still on an engine stand almost two years after I first heard it run.

My advice to you is to leave your current engine alone while you decide what you really want to do. Then do it with another engine. That way you have the best of both worlds. You have a running car to enjoy while you are building an engine. Take your time. Learn all you can. Half the fun is in the learning and planning. It is very satisfying to hear your new engine fire up for the first time. You won't regret it.

And yeah, you're quite right. One thing that I know will drive me nutz is a nice warm California Spring afternoon, and my Cobra sits, partially dismantled, in my garage and the only sunshine I get is when I stick my hand out from underneath the Cobra for a wrench...

Well, lots to think about.

By the way, the re-ring trick I mostly hear from ex-racers. It was brought up to me by a racer that used to drive GT-40's "back in the day".

By the way, here's a tech question: When resetting a distributor, how do you get the distributor to line up with the top of the oil pump shaft. I tried for quite a while on my engine, and ended up jacking the Cobra up in some weird way to get the oil pump shaft to center, then I could set the distributor.

There has GOT to be a better way!

Dd