Ford Racing 427W ate cam gear

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by carmine

Dallas

Was that a bronze gear that they told you to install in your ford racing 427w or was it a steel or cast iron gear?

Does the engine have hydraulic roller lifters?

Steel gear, hydraulic roller.

The distributor gear looked good, no wear.
(But it did have some small scars from the cam gear comming apart.)

[Luce]

I love the flip lid option. I can see that this is going to be a bit of a pain with the small hood opening.

I think it has a high volume. I'm going back with a high volume.

Same for my dizzy gear. There's a few marks from the cam gear coming apart, but the bulk of the metal is still there. The cam gear is another story. There is considerable metal missing. If you know what you're looking at in the pic, you can see that 1/2 of the width of the teeth eroded away before the tips started chipping off and the timing started jumping around, then it actually skipped a toothed every second revolution.

[madmaxx]

How in the f&Ck, after 100 years of building engines can it be possilbe to have a mismatch between the distributor gear and cam gear. Zero excuses. There is very little to zero compentcy left in the "aftermarket" engine building realm. The one who know what they are doing - KC, Blykins, deliver detail build manuals with all parts and clearnaces spelled out for your particular engine. What do the big boys give you - not a f8cking thing. Avoid them like the plague.

[Luce]

I have to agree with you on that.

I thought when I plunked my chunk of cash down on a Fordracing (you know, with the name in front I thought was behind it) I thought I was side stepping all of the problems with the bottom dollar is all that matters engine builders. All I wanted was a rock solid long block that I could put the induction and EFi system I wanted on. I was sorely disappointing with the documentation I was provided.

The pain about a kit car is the engine is usually well out of warranty before it is ever fired over. But you have to have the engine to fab all of the other stuff. Maybe the thing is to buy a dead boat anchor and build the car around it, then put the big dollar engine in so you can get 10-20K miles before the warranty expires.

I'm not dwelling on it. Soon, I'll have my parts to replace the cam and get it back together. Everything else looks great. It'll scream like a charred a$$ ape when I'm done and life will be good again. Then I can get to my other 2 projects... A new Hemi and trans in my 82 Dodge350 crew cab and 3L turbo charged duratec in the '78 Kelmark Ferrari Dino lookalike.

[Tom Wells]

Luce,

This story is at least eleven years old: Tom challenges the Butcher! Dist gear failure report...

Bottom line: bad gear and/or placement from Ford on a crate motor. Tom == out $2200, Ford == bad, bad, bad...

Sorry this is still happening. Maybe Ford doesn't know how to build a performance engine?

This engine BTW just turned 30,000 miles, some of it very hard miles on the track at Sebring etc. It was completely rebuilt by an independent builder.

I wouldn't trust a Ford crate motor any farther than I could throw it one-handed.

All the subsequent engines I use have been built by independent guys who seem to be interested in doing a good job, like most of the engine guys on this web site.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sounds as if you have the correct attitude - fix the problem and get on with having fun in life; try not to make the same mistake again!

Tom

[GBowman]

Ford doesn't even build the crate motors FYI...I had issues with my solid roller last year, they made it right...BUT, that's why Blykins is building my new engine

[Luce]

I'm not even bringing this to them. I would rather fix it right myself.

The rest looks great. I'll know better tomorrow night after the full tear down and start of the put back. I don't have the gaskets, but I have the cam, so I'll get that replaced and lifters back in the holes. Also still waiting on the timing chain, so I can't yet degree the cam and check valve clearances.

It'll run great when I'm done.

[madmaxx]

Do yourself a favor call blykins maybe want to change cam profile and make sure you use a billet cam not Sadi cast.

[Wbulk]

I am sorry I came late to this thread but I wanted to add a few things that may have not been covered. The clearance between the gear bottom and the block is a min. .005. This is supposed to be checked with no cam gear or cam in place. You hold down on the housing and reach inside and lift up on the gear. I just bought a spare roller engine and tore it apart and decided to check the clearance. Someone had put in a non-roller dist. with the wrong cast gear that was wearing. But the clearance was correct.

There is a lot of focus on the gear material but there are additional causes even with the correct gear. The correct clearance is to allow the gear to come down to ride on the block for proper mesh with the cam. After-market distributors may not be drilled and pinned in the right location to allow this, and may require re-drilling. Another issue is computer distributors often have a longer shaft that engages with the oil pump rod. Sometimes they bottom out against each other, not allowing the distributor to come down to it's proper location.

Another big issue now days is the High Volume pumps used in the SB. Comp Cams has warned about this and I seem to remember one of the cam companies refusing to warranty cams when a HV pump is used. We have all seen SB pump rods twisting off for various reasons. So a lot of guys put on the ARP better pump rod, which is a good idea. But consider, with a HV pump if you have stock oil clearances that pump is going to put a greater strain on that distributor gear and reasonably cause greater wear. I just don't put in the HV pumps in the SB for that reason. It's not worth ruining the engine for.

[blykins]

I think the hv pump deal is just an excuse from manufacturers. I use hv pumps in everything and have never had a gear failure or a shaft failure. The only issue I've ever had with a gear is when I made an assumption and used a customer-supplied distributor with a bronze gear, without checking the gear install dimension.

[Rick Parker]

Thank you Wbulk

"We have all seen SB pump rods twisting off for various reasons. So a lot of guys put on the ARP better pump rod, which is a good idea. But consider, with a HV pump if you have stock oil clearances that pump is going to put a greater strain on that distributor gear and reasonably cause greater wear. I just don't put in the HV pumps in the SB for that reason. It's not worth ruining the engine for."

I personally have used 3 variations of HV pumps on my 289 for 23 years with no issues. Keep this in mind... the PUMPS dont create the resistance imparted upn the gears, it is the resistance to flow (ie pressure) that does. The clearances built into the mains & rod bearings AND rod side clearance is what will permit the oil an "escape route". If you put an HV pump on an engine with clearances that are tight and on the low side, as in a standard non hipo build you're asking for trouble. IMO the reason for a HV pump is if the clearances are set on the high side for less drag, then with a little thought resrictors can be place to redirect the additional volume of oil. They have their place if used for the right application. Fluid dynamics 101

PS: When istalling any fresh cam always check the leading edge of the teeth on the gear. Many time they will have a very sharp edge that need to be burnished or "knocked down" so it will not be the initial contact point with the distributor gear. This is a small but important detail for all builds.

[Luce]

She's back together and screaming like a banshee again, but with a slightly more stable idle. Now I can get back to pulling excess fuel and adding timing to the light load parts of the map. I put about 50 miles on it yesterday, now I want to change the oil and filter again to be sure I have all of the old cam gear out.

The pump has a pressure relief bypass valve to keep the resistance in check. The added swept area / volume does add a little more load on the gear, but only 30% or so. The gear shouldn't be so marginally designed to fail over an additional 30% load. Going from cast iron to steel should easily regain that margin. And yes, I have an ARP drive shaft.

The HV pump is cheap insurance. It ensures you have plenty of pressure on a well aged motor that's pushed hard, even when the oil gets a little too hot. All you sacrifice is a little fuel economy.

Wbulk, you're post scared me for a second when you said there should be a minimum .005" clearance between the distributor gear and the block. Just to make sure I'm right, the gear DOES ride on the block, but you want to see end play in the distributor of .005" when installed. That is what I have. Saying it needs .005" minimum clearance sound like it shouldn't ever touch the block.

With the dizzy out, I have about .025" of shaft endplay, but when installed and the gear is seated in the block, instead of the top of the shaft, under the advance mechanism hitting the upper bearing, I have .005".

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by blykins

I think the hv pump deal is just an excuse from manufacturers. I use hv pumps in everything and have never had a gear failure or a shaft failure........"

me neither. I am a firm believer in using the Melling HV pumps, especially in small block Ford engines. They need all the oil volume / pressure that the HV pump can deliver. My Paxton equipped GT350 had the HV pump, and had 72 psi oil pressure when hot. On numerous occasions I ran that car flat i out for as long as a tank of gas would allow. After 10 years and 50,000+ miles the engine never had any breakdowns and upon inspection, zero wear on rod & main bearings & zero wear on cylinder walls. I credit the HV oil pump w/ a chromemoly drive shaft, and Mobil 1 15w-50.

Z.

[blykins]

Luce, you pleased with the cam?

[Luce]

Yes Sir! Thanks for the help with the selection.

The megasquirt soft rev limiter is really nice too. I have it set to start pulling timing at 5800, then cut fuel if it hits 6200. So under wheelspin, it just hangs at 5900rpm sounding OH SO MEAN without the popping and sputtering.

One day you guys will move into the 21'st century and embrace the computer in your car. I understand not having the side snorkel 95 mustang 5.0, but EFI can look good under a cobra hood.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Luce

One day you guys will move into the 21'st century and embrace the computer in your car.

Nah.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

The HV pump is cheap insurance. It ensures you have plenty of pressure on a well aged motor that's pushed hard, even when the oil gets a little too hot. All you sacrifice is a little fuel economy.

This statement is a misnomer and false and something people should understand and get correct.......

All a high volume oil pump does is pump 30% (depends on the pump,some put out 25% more) more oil than a "standard volume" oil pump.....The oil pressure remains the same with either a high volume or standard volume pump, the only thing that changes is the volume of oil pumped!!!!!!!

In another way it is basically the same as if you have a one inch water hose hooked to a faucet at your house and then remove it and hook up a 1.25 inch water hose to the same faucet, you don't get more water pressure, you only get more water due to the larger hose..........

David

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

This statement is a misnomer and false and something people should understand and get correct.......

All a high volume oil pump does is pump 30% (depends on the pump,some put out 25% more) more oil than a "standard volume" oil pump.....The oil pressure remains the same with either a high volume or standard volume pump, the only thing that changes is the volume of oil pumped!!!!!!!...."

David

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. If engine clearances stay the same, and they do, they the oil pressure goes up with the HV pumps. I've taken out numerous std. pumps from all types of Ford engines, and installed Melling HV pumps in their place. You can expect a 15 to 25 psi increase in hot oil pressure after the swap.

Z.

[Wbulk]

Luce, you got me thinking about that and I forgot there is a down measurement to. It's explained in this Ford Racing tech sheet, page 7 (Alternative Method). The dist. measurement method I have found does not seem to always work as I have measured dist. that do not match but when measured under the alternative do check out. Regardless, I looked and saw you have a 351 based engine so the dist. lenght may not be the same. Ford says the alternative method can only be checked without the cam in the block. After I found this again I looked for one specific to the 351 based engine and could not find one. I believe the .005 up and dowm check should apply. Sorry for not being complete on that.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...-6007-X302.pdf

ADDED: I finally was able to find a sheet specific to the 351. It looks like it's pretty much the same.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...427AFT_ART.pdf
I

[Luce]

David, that is not exactly apples to apples. A better example is your new, in spec engine has a total open clearance (not sure how you would measure such a thing) for discussions sake equivalent to a hole .2". If you push x gal/ hr through that hole, you will have y PSI of back pressure getting that much oil through that hole. Now open that hole to .3". If you increase the flow to some x', you can achieve the same pressure, but at a higher flow rate. The pressure is what assures that oil is getting everywhere. With some miniscule (maybe 2-5 PSI) you could maybe get some oil to the first main bearing, but not stand a chance of it getting up the pushrods to the rockers. A larger swept volume oil pump will hold the same pressure with a larger clearance and/or lower viscosity oil. A larger volume oil pump will also spend more time bypassing excess flow

I checked and have the overall length correct. I also checked the block depth to see that yes, the gear should ride on the block. That's the only sensible way. There is no provision to lubricate the top of the distributor. Bronze bushings are OK to keep the rotor centered in the cap, but not take the downforce of the gear without oil flow.

It just gave me a oh no moment thinking you were saying the gear should never touch the block.