Ford Racing 427W ate cam gear

[Rick Parker]

Thank you Wbulk

"We have all seen SB pump rods twisting off for various reasons. So a lot of guys put on the ARP better pump rod, which is a good idea. But consider, with a HV pump if you have stock oil clearances that pump is going to put a greater strain on that distributor gear and reasonably cause greater wear. I just don't put in the HV pumps in the SB for that reason. It's not worth ruining the engine for."

I personally have used 3 variations of HV pumps on my 289 for 23 years with no issues. Keep this in mind... the PUMPS dont create the resistance imparted upn the gears, it is the resistance to flow (ie pressure) that does. The clearances built into the mains & rod bearings AND rod side clearance is what will permit the oil an "escape route". If you put an HV pump on an engine with clearances that are tight and on the low side, as in a standard non hipo build you're asking for trouble. IMO the reason for a HV pump is if the clearances are set on the high side for less drag, then with a little thought resrictors can be place to redirect the additional volume of oil. They have their place if used for the right application. Fluid dynamics 101

PS: When istalling any fresh cam always check the leading edge of the teeth on the gear. Many time they will have a very sharp edge that need to be burnished or "knocked down" so it will not be the initial contact point with the distributor gear. This is a small but important detail for all builds.

[Luce]

She's back together and screaming like a banshee again, but with a slightly more stable idle. Now I can get back to pulling excess fuel and adding timing to the light load parts of the map. I put about 50 miles on it yesterday, now I want to change the oil and filter again to be sure I have all of the old cam gear out.

The pump has a pressure relief bypass valve to keep the resistance in check. The added swept area / volume does add a little more load on the gear, but only 30% or so. The gear shouldn't be so marginally designed to fail over an additional 30% load. Going from cast iron to steel should easily regain that margin. And yes, I have an ARP drive shaft.

The HV pump is cheap insurance. It ensures you have plenty of pressure on a well aged motor that's pushed hard, even when the oil gets a little too hot. All you sacrifice is a little fuel economy.

Wbulk, you're post scared me for a second when you said there should be a minimum .005" clearance between the distributor gear and the block. Just to make sure I'm right, the gear DOES ride on the block, but you want to see end play in the distributor of .005" when installed. That is what I have. Saying it needs .005" minimum clearance sound like it shouldn't ever touch the block.

With the dizzy out, I have about .025" of shaft endplay, but when installed and the gear is seated in the block, instead of the top of the shaft, under the advance mechanism hitting the upper bearing, I have .005".

[blykins]

Luce, you pleased with the cam?

[Luce]

Yes Sir! Thanks for the help with the selection.

The megasquirt soft rev limiter is really nice too. I have it set to start pulling timing at 5800, then cut fuel if it hits 6200. So under wheelspin, it just hangs at 5900rpm sounding OH SO MEAN without the popping and sputtering.

One day you guys will move into the 21'st century and embrace the computer in your car. I understand not having the side snorkel 95 mustang 5.0, but EFI can look good under a cobra hood.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Luce

One day you guys will move into the 21'st century and embrace the computer in your car.

Nah.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

The HV pump is cheap insurance. It ensures you have plenty of pressure on a well aged motor that's pushed hard, even when the oil gets a little too hot. All you sacrifice is a little fuel economy.

This statement is a misnomer and false and something people should understand and get correct.......

All a high volume oil pump does is pump 30% (depends on the pump,some put out 25% more) more oil than a "standard volume" oil pump.....The oil pressure remains the same with either a high volume or standard volume pump, the only thing that changes is the volume of oil pumped!!!!!!!

In another way it is basically the same as if you have a one inch water hose hooked to a faucet at your house and then remove it and hook up a 1.25 inch water hose to the same faucet, you don't get more water pressure, you only get more water due to the larger hose..........

David

[Wbulk]

Luce, you got me thinking about that and I forgot there is a down measurement to. It's explained in this Ford Racing tech sheet, page 7 (Alternative Method). The dist. measurement method I have found does not seem to always work as I have measured dist. that do not match but when measured under the alternative do check out. Regardless, I looked and saw you have a 351 based engine so the dist. lenght may not be the same. Ford says the alternative method can only be checked without the cam in the block. After I found this again I looked for one specific to the 351 based engine and could not find one. I believe the .005 up and dowm check should apply. Sorry for not being complete on that.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...-6007-X302.pdf

ADDED: I finally was able to find a sheet specific to the 351. It looks like it's pretty much the same.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...427AFT_ART.pdf
I

[Luce]

David, that is not exactly apples to apples. A better example is your new, in spec engine has a total open clearance (not sure how you would measure such a thing) for discussions sake equivalent to a hole .2". If you push x gal/ hr through that hole, you will have y PSI of back pressure getting that much oil through that hole. Now open that hole to .3". If you increase the flow to some x', you can achieve the same pressure, but at a higher flow rate. The pressure is what assures that oil is getting everywhere. With some miniscule (maybe 2-5 PSI) you could maybe get some oil to the first main bearing, but not stand a chance of it getting up the pushrods to the rockers. A larger swept volume oil pump will hold the same pressure with a larger clearance and/or lower viscosity oil. A larger volume oil pump will also spend more time bypassing excess flow

I checked and have the overall length correct. I also checked the block depth to see that yes, the gear should ride on the block. That's the only sensible way. There is no provision to lubricate the top of the distributor. Bronze bushings are OK to keep the rotor centered in the cap, but not take the downforce of the gear without oil flow.

It just gave me a oh no moment thinking you were saying the gear should never touch the block.

[Luce]

Regardless, I'll be pulling this distributor every few hundred miles to make sure nothing is going south until I have the confidence of a few thousand miles under my belt.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by blykins

I think the hv pump deal is just an excuse from manufacturers. I use hv pumps in everything and have never had a gear failure or a shaft failure........"

me neither. I am a firm believer in using the Melling HV pumps, especially in small block Ford engines. They need all the oil volume / pressure that the HV pump can deliver. My Paxton equipped GT350 had the HV pump, and had 72 psi oil pressure when hot. On numerous occasions I ran that car flat i out for as long as a tank of gas would allow. After 10 years and 50,000+ miles the engine never had any breakdowns and upon inspection, zero wear on rod & main bearings & zero wear on cylinder walls. I credit the HV oil pump w/ a chromemoly drive shaft, and Mobil 1 15w-50.

Z.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

This statement is a misnomer and false and something people should understand and get correct.......

All a high volume oil pump does is pump 30% (depends on the pump,some put out 25% more) more oil than a "standard volume" oil pump.....The oil pressure remains the same with either a high volume or standard volume pump, the only thing that changes is the volume of oil pumped!!!!!!!...."

David

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. If engine clearances stay the same, and they do, they the oil pressure goes up with the HV pumps. I've taken out numerous std. pumps from all types of Ford engines, and installed Melling HV pumps in their place. You can expect a 15 to 25 psi increase in hot oil pressure after the swap.

Z.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by zrayr

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. If engine clearances stay the same, and they do, they the oil pressure goes up with the HV pumps. I've taken out numerous std. pumps from all types of Ford engines, and installed Melling HV pumps in their place. You can expect a 15 to 25 psi increase in hot oil pressure after the swap.

Z.

I do understand what you are saying and it does make sense. I've had this very same discussion with the people at Melling that build the pumps,so there are 100% wrong also....... according to the people at Melling, their standard volume and their high volume oil pumps are set at the same psi and rated for the same psi, only difference is volume of oil being pumped by the pump... I asked the same question you have answered in the above post, their answer was the pump itself will only pump X amount of pressure,once that is exceeded the bypass kicks in....
I don't doubt you did get more oil pressure with a HV pump, some of that could be attributed to changing pumps in a used engine with Y amount of wear in the bearings,in that case you would get more pressure because of the increased flow of oil....the only real way to find out would be to run a new engine with each pump as see what the oil pressure would be with each pump......
Also, the Melling pumps I use have are adjustable and one can turn up or down the adjustment to set at what pressure the bypass "kicks in".

David

[zrayr]

I do run newly overhauled engines with both pumps. The HV pump will produce more pressure. The bypass is set so high (100 psi) that it not reached with either pump.

In my last '66 GT350, with a new overhaul to minimum stock clearances, the std pump had 50 psi of hot oil pressure. The HV pump had 72 psi.

Z.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Luce

David, that is not exactly apples to apples. A better example is your new, in spec engine has a total open clearance (not sure how you would measure such a thing) for discussions sake equivalent to a hole .2". If you push x gal/ hr through that hole, you will have y PSI of back pressure getting that much oil through that hole. Now open that hole to .3". If you increase the flow to some x', you can achieve the same pressure, but at a higher flow rate. The pressure is what assures that oil is getting everywhere. With some miniscule (maybe 2-5 PSI) you could maybe get some oil to the first main bearing, but not stand a chance of it getting up the pushrods to the rockers. A larger swept volume oil pump will hold the same pressure with a larger clearance and/or lower viscosity oil. A larger volume oil pump will also spend more time bypassing excess flow

No, not exactly apples to apples, but close...think about this: your oil pump pickup/tube is a specific diameter and can flow X gal/hr thru it,now the oil is sucked up thru the pickup in the bottom of your oil pan and into the pump, where it is pushed under pressure thru the oil filter and into a hole in the block feeding the engine oil....

Now, go look at the diameter of any stock or after market oil pickup and the look at the size of the hole in the block where the oil enters under pressure....I can assure the hole in the block is quite a bit smaller than the diameter of the pickup,it has to be,otherwise the pickup would not be able to flow enough oil to maintain the output of the pump.....
I'm not a fluid dynamics engineer,it is all regulated by the pump bypass setting...one could change that setting and achieve more pressure with a HV pump, but according to Melling, they are all sent out with the same setting....

David

[Luce]

If the pressure is below the bypass pressure, all other things being equal in a loose engine, the HV pump will read a higher oil pressure than a standard.

The bypass setting will be the absolute maximum oil pressure you see. I don't know if the bypass pressure is the same between the two pumps. Doesn't matter to me. I want the HV for when the bypass is closed and I'm hot idling after kicking it in the teeth. I want my hydrolic lifters to not bleed flat.

If you tell me I should have the correct bearing clearances instead and the HV pump is a bandaid masking a bigger problem, I'll have to agree. But the HV pump might make a tired old engine make it through the season and that's good enough reason for me.

My problem was having a iron cam and thinking it was steel. Shame on them for the poor documentation I got with the motor, but shame on me for not calling and getting the answers I should have. And it's no longer a problem!

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by Luce

My problem was having a iron cam and thinking it was steel. Shame on them for the poor documentation I got with the motor, but shame on me for not calling and getting the answers I should have. And it's no longer a problem!

So you confirmed you had an iron cam gear?

Interesting since they say it's steel.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Luce:

If the pressure is below the bypass pressure, all other things being equal in a loose engine, the HV pump will read a higher oil pressure than a standard.

Yes, I agree with that statement........

The bypass setting will be the absolute maximum oil pressure you see. I don't know if the bypass pressure is the same between the two pumps. Doesn't matter to me. I want the HV for when the bypass is closed and I'm hot idling after kicking it in the teeth. I want my hydrolic lifters to not bleed flat.

o-k, I agree with that also,in that case, a HV pump is not a bad choice...

If you tell me I should have the correct bearing clearances instead and the HV pump is a bandaid masking a bigger problem, I'll have to agree. But the HV pump might make a tired old engine make it through the season and that's good enough reason for me.

Not saying your bearing clearances are out of whack,I have no idea what they are.
Second sentence, most definitely,a HV pump will help a tired old engine go many more miles....

Not saying nor never said that one should NOT use a HV pump, they have their place,I just think they are over used.....
Ever pull a valve cover off and start the engine,just to see how much oil is flowing out of the pushrods???? I have, on many occassions,actually the last time was yesterday, changing a seeping valve cover gasket on a newly built 331 stroker... the engine had been run for 30 minutes, the oil temp was 160 and the idle oil pressure was 40 psi, while I had the valve cover off, I started the engine, the back 4 pushrods were shooting a stream of oil that cleared the head by 6 inches!!!!! the front 4 pushrods were shooting a stream of oil that was just cleared the head.not quite,but close to a solid stream of oil coming out of them all this at 40 psi, can't imagine how much oil would be pumped thru the pushrods at 60+ psi.....this engine had 15/40 Shell Rotella T oil and a Melling High Performance STANDARD volume/STANDARD pressure oil pump on it.

David

[mike harter]

You will be changing a bronze gear every 3 to 5000 miles. Stick with a steel gear