351M???

[tpiini]

Hey Guys,

A few months ago I put out some local feelers for some running or rebuildable Ford engines. I've had a few FE's, a 351W, a 460, and now, a "351M" given to me.

Up until yesterday, I have only a vague recollection of seeing that designation anywhere. The guy who gave it to me told me that it's basically a Cleveland, but with larger main bearings and a S/B bellhousing pattern. It is supposedly designed as a low-range torque engine that won't see too many revs.

Does anyone out here know if that's the real skinny on this? If that IS what I have, would it have regular "Cleveland" heads?

Perhaps my queston is premature without casting #'s, but I'm just looking for a quick confirmation regarding my newest freebie.

Thanks, Tom

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Tom;

Just my opinion for what it's worth.........

The 351-M is based on the CLeveland style heads,but they are not as good as the original Cleveland heads,maybe with a lot of money and work they could be as good..........

Most consider the block as a "big block" vs. a small block enigne even though it is a small block displacement.........

I have had a vehicle with this same motor and have driven quite a few over the years,my opinion is they are a big, fat, heavy, lazy engine and it takes way too much money to make them "run".........maybe that's why it was given to you.....around here you can get them running out of junkyards for as little as 50 bucks if you pull it.............

better off with a 351-W,more performance parts avaliable and they are still fairly plentiful in the salvage yards........

depending on what you want to install it in, it may or may not fit, as it is physically bigger than the 351-W motor and also heavier............

I know 3 or 4 guys that replaced running 351/400M's with 351-W's and actually could not give away the running M motors,they had to haul them to the scrap dealer to get rid of them..........

Just my .02 cents............

David

[Mr.Fixit]

Go with a windsor

I used to have a 400M, it was in a 78 LTD with a ton of miles. It did good burnouts, but I couldn'tget anybody interested in buying the running motor.

[Excaliber]

...back in the day...
They were commonly found in various trucks along with the 400M. Nothing special, I'd pass on it.

[Woodz428]

If it has a regular smallblock bellhousing pattern, it would have to be an early (read rare) 400. They only made them in the early seventies (I believe one year..1973). All other 400s and 351Ms use the 460 bellhousing pattern. The heads are no different than 351 Cleveland 2 bbl heads. If it hasn't suffered from cracking in the lifter valley it could be worth a good penny to someone that needs one. The small block bellhousing is a dead give away that it is not a 351M or a regular 400. Get the casting #'s, it may just be a 2bbl Cleveland, most of the early 400 with the small pattern were junked because of the cracking.

[trularin]

I agree with Ernie, I'd pass.

[tpiini]

Thanks for te replies, guys.

I hadn't intended on ever using this in a Cobra, but it was a freebie so I figured it may be of use to someone, someday. I've got essentially unlimited garage space, so sticking it into a corner isn't a problem. At least I now know for sure what it is and that the guy who gave it to me knew what he was talking about.

Thanks again,
Tom

[COBRA406]

I have a 400 in my Cobra. Your block, if it is indeed a 351M/400
(no M designation in the 400), and if it has cast in both a large
and small bellhousing bolt pattern, it what is referred to as an
FMX block. Only 1973 and it is rare and in demand with the
puller truck crowd. I wanted a different mill in my car. These
engines are pigs stock but are a cleveland design and most
speed equipment from the C will work, cams, 4V heads,
timing sets and pistons (with bushed rods). The truck crowd
is getting unbelievable HP out of them and TMI in MI. is
offering stroker forged cranks and pistons for them. I am running
70 quenched 4V heads with spacer plates (NO good intakes
are available) with a Blue Thunder Cleveland intake, forged,
balanced, and blueprinted engine with roller rockers and
mallory ignition. Its a torque monster and I will tell you, it can
be built for a song. Not everyone's cup but I like a different
set of rules. THe quenced 4V heads really wake up the long
stroke tall deck engine and the competitive puller truck crowd
is getting enormous HP out of these.
THanks.

[JustOne]

These motors were built for marine applications, great torque with the rod ratio, and can be made to make hp if you can find the right parts. One of htese motors is pushing an old Nautique around here 60 mph and will sling a huge prop!

[Mark O'Neal]

The problem with these pigs is that they are too tall and too heavy.

The block height and weight is about the same as a 460. Some of the intake manifolds have the carb mounting flange below the top of the intake runner, so the air/fuel had to go down turn up to the head, then turn down into the chamber.

Tolerable for boats and irrigation pumps, but it sucks if you're trying to make power. At least, if you use one, inject it so it's just moving air and you're not slamming fuel into the walls.

My feeling though, is if it's as big as a 460 on the outside, it needs to be as big as a 460 on the inside too.

My favorite application would be to hold aforementioned boat in a stable location........

[COBRA406]

Again, these can make big HP if you know what you are
taking about and do a little research. It fits fine in my Midstates
with the stock hood/scoop combo with no mods to the C
configuration. Heavy.... about 45# more than the C. I'm very
happy with the power.

[Mark O'Neal]

I didn't mean to offend you.

My definition of performance engines, especially for my customers, relates to power obtained per dollar spent.

This thing, especially with it's weak counterweights, doesn't fit into my program.

That doesn't mean that everyone has to think it sucks, it just means I do.

But, there is a seat for every butt!....

[COBRA406]

None taken. I guess your definition of a performance engine
meets mine as I obtained excellent performance/money spent.

[CoupedUp]

Originally posted by tpiini


I've got essentially unlimited garage space, so sticking it into a corner isn't a problem.

Thanks again,
Tom

Tom,
I hate you.

Doug

[tpiini]

Originally posted by CoupedUp


Tom,
I hate you.

Doug

The secret is to sell yor two houses in Monterey and move to nowhereville, Kansas. You too can build a 6,000 Sq.' garage with bunches & bunches of $$$ left over!

[CoupedUp]

Tom,
No can do. I have an ex in Kansas and this isn't really far enough for me...

Doug

[webebob]

The buildup of the 400 as an inexpensive performance engine is happening in the background. Quietly.

Maybe if it was called a "tall deck cleveland stroker block", more people would be on the bandwagon.

It is no longer front to back than a cleveland. A plus for the Pantera where the pullies of a 460 want to visit the driver.

A stroker crank is now available that makes 434cubes from the stock block. That is 83 more cubes than the clevaland. Or another 100 ftlbs of torque.

And for heads, the heads that Jon Kaase used to WIN the Engine Masters Challenge bolt right on. The worlds best heads won't bolt onto your windsor, but they will a 400.

The perfect engine, probably not. But a "pig"? Hmmm.

[427sharpe]

Roush used to offer a lot of parts for the 400...he really liked it as a base to begin building a strong competition motor. He also built a few for a Cobra company a few years back, as I recall.

[Mark O'Neal]

Originally posted by webebob


The buildup of the 400 as an inexpensive performance engine is happening in the background. Quietly.

Maybe if it was called a "tall deck cleveland stroker block", more people would be on the bandwagon.

It is no longer front to back than a cleveland. A plus for the Pantera where the pullies of a 460 want to visit the driver.

A stroker crank is now available that makes 434cubes from the stock block. That is 83 more cubes than the clevaland. Or another 100 ftlbs of torque.

And for heads, the heads that Jon Kaase used to WIN the Engine Masters Challenge bolt right on. The worlds best heads won't bolt onto your windsor, but they will a 400.

The perfect engine, probably not. But a "pig"? Hmmm.

Well sure, but we were talking the 351M, the 400 is better, if you stand the intake tract up enough to make it work well.

But I just called two other custom piston makers and asked for their volume on the 351/400M. Both put it in the 1 set a year range.

And I can get the heads on a W if I wanted to...

And we came in sixth, with a broken, off the shelf motor that unlike Johns didn't even detonate from running way too much compression for the gas. Doesn't take anything away from him, or his abilities, because he followed the same rules as the rest and got a better result.

But you have to remember that those motors are only useful for the EngineMasters contest. After that they were all pretty much trash.

I'll grant you that these things are just modified Clevelands, and can find a home in certain applications. But from the perspective of aftermarket parts supplied they rank somewhere behind the AMC 401 with a dogleg head....but a little in front of the nailhead Buick......

[Daniel Jones]

> It is no longer front to back than a cleveland. A plus for the Pantera where
> the pullies of a 460 want to visit the driver.

Yes. I know of several 400's that have been built or are being built
for Panteras. Several are strokers (one is 434 cubes and the other is
438 cubes) and one is a standard stroke 400. Before I came up with the
Fontana aluminum block I picked up a nice 400 block with the small block
bellhousing pattern and was planning on doing a stroker with a set of A3
Ford motorsport high port heads like the one Roush did for his Autokraft
Cobra.

One of the Pantera guys dyno'd his 400 at Cobra Restorers, in Kennesaw, GA.
Here are the results:

RPM HP TQ
2000 158 415
2500 212 445
3000 274 480
3500 352 527
4000 431 566
4500 500 583
5000 543 571
5500 567 541
6000 577 505
6500 567 458

Here are the engine parts:
Ford 400 FMX block, bored .030", 4-bolt main
Stock rods/crank
Arias forged pistons
351C 4V heads, ported, 2.19/1.76 SS valves, 11:1 CR
Comp Pro Magnum 1.73 intake/1.8 exhaust roller rockers
Hall Pantera manifold
PME intake spacers
Weber 48 IDA's, 45mm chokes, Inglese needle/seats/circuits
Comp 32-771-8 Magnum roller cam
GTS Tri-y 2" headers"
FC 288R-10 cam (Part Number 32-771-8)
244/244 deg duration @ 0.050", 0.623"/0.623" lift, 110 LSA

> A stroker crank is now available that makes 434cubes from the stock block.
> That is 83 more cubes than the clevaland. Or another 100 ftlbs of torque.

The 400 crank can also be offset ground.

> And for heads, the heads that Jon Kaase used to WIN the Engine Masters
> Challenge bolt right on. The worlds best heads won't bolt onto your windsor,
> but they will a 400.

The CHI's are great heads but as to "worlds best heads" remember
many cylinders heads like the Motorsport C302B, Brodix BF300's, and
Kaase's own SBF heads were not legal under the EMC rules.

> Roush used to offer a lot of parts for the 400...he really liked it as
> a base to begin building a strong competition motor. He also built a
> few for a Cobra company a few years back, as I recall.

Yup. Before all the fancy SVO blocks were available, Jack Roush's own
Autokraft Cobra was powered by stroked 400 with SVO high port aluminum
Cleveland heads. An old Super Ford article ("The Cobra that Jack built")
gave the details. The article stated Jack wanted a torque monster and a
460 would have been his choice but no aluminum heads for the big block were
available at the time. To keep the weight reasonable, he decided to stroke
a 400 and use Motorsport 351C aluminum high port heads. Using a custom
stroker crank and boring the block 0.030" over, he was able to get 460 cubes
out of the 400 block. Adapter plates and a Motorsport high port intake,
(looked like an Edelbrock A331), were used along with a 780 Holley. The
cam was surprisingly mild, a hydraulic Comp Cams 280 with 0.530" lift (the
article mistakenly states 0.500" lift). Claimed output was 520 HP.

Dan Jones