351C or 351W

[Lawler]

I am planning my powerplant options for my cobra. I would like to install an EFI 351 and supercharge it. Any comments or ideas on this choice? I like the fuel injection for the reliability. Shooting between 400 and 500 hp.

[jetenginedoctor]

You'll be money ahead with the 351W. Back in the day, the 351C would get the nod because its cylinder heads flowed far better than heads for the 351W. However, there are plenty of options available for the W engine that just plain put the C motor to shame. That coupled with the variety of intakes available for the W makes it the easy favorite for almost all applications.

As far as EFI goes, are you looking for the ITB look, 4bbl style carb with matching throttle body, a Ford MPI style intake, etc? I specialize in engine control electronics and can point you in the right direction regarding the controls, but my suggestions will vary greatly based on what you state as your primary objectives with this induction system.

So, tell more about what means the most to you (looks vs performance) what style you like to look at, how the car will be used, etc.

BK

[Frank Messina]

No offense to anyone with a Cleveland, but the Windsor has benefitted from so much head development over the years there is really no reason to use a Cleveland today. You can easily make your numbers and much more if you want with a Windsor. Quality Roadsters makes a FI system that uses the Ford EEC IV computer that has gotten some great reviews.
Frank

[Mike Simard]

Another part that's harder to find if you use a Cleveland are headers, I'm not sure if there are any off the shelf headers for any Cobra manufacturer. If you did use a Cleveland you would get the nod for coolness, they still have a mystique about them.
jetenginedoctor, welcome aboard. I recognize you from corner carvers, you are the man! Please keep posting here and don't get sucked into spending all your time at some manufacturer specific site.

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by Mike Simard

Another part that's harder to find if you use a Cleveland are headers, I'm not sure if there are any off the shelf headers for any Cobra manufacturer. If you did use a Cleveland you would get the nod for coolness, they still have a mystique about them.
jetenginedoctor, welcome aboard. I recognize you from corner carvers, you are the man! Please keep posting here and don't get sucked into spending all your time at some manufacturer specific site.

Since when was being able to buy something off the shelf a factor that makes something "better?"

Come on, and you know this. . . man!

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by Frank Messina

No offense to anyone with a Cleveland, but the Windsor has benefitted from so much head development over the years there is really no reason to use a Cleveland today.

Hmm. . . . I disagree.

One of the big differences between the C and W motors that lends them better choices for different uses is the main bearing journal diameter and connecting rod length. If you want to build a relatively low RPM engine (under 6000 RPM) then the Windsor is a good choice with its longer rod. However, with its larger main bearing diameter, oiling is a concern at speeds of 6000 RPM or greater. The reason being, the larger the bearing diameter, the greater the linear speed for the same given RPM. This means the oil shear speed is proportionately greater with the 351W engine compared to the 351C.

The 351C, having smaller main bearing diameter and shorter rods is a little better starting point for guys who want to build an engine to rev. Despite the far greater variety of 351W style cylinder heads, the offerings for the 351C (such as those from www.chiheads.com) are still WAY better than anything for the 351W. Don't forget that the C valvetrain is canted (correctly) such that the short side radius for both the intake and exhaust valves are far shorter and a larger radius. This makes for HUGE HP benefits, and is the basis for the TFS Twisted Wedge cylinder heads. The obvious difference between the C and the TFS-TW heads is that the C heads were designed from the very beginning to be a canted-valve cylinder head. The TFS-TW for the W is more of a semi-canted head, and suffers from premature valve guide wear due to the unbalanced valve stem loading.

Anyway. . . .

You can easily make your numbers and much more if you want with a Windsor. Quality Roadsters makes a FI system that uses the Ford EEC IV computer that has gotten some great reviews.
Frank

I've got a variety of alternatives for engine control that make the QR EFI system look quite modest.

BK

[Poolw]

Winsor is the number one leader. Check with Keith Craft Motors they have a link on this site.
Poolw

[1985 CCX]

C or W,

It is personnal choice, I have been in both and they are both strong running motors. Power is easy to acheive in both set-ups without SC and the extra heat it may cause. These underhoods do not spit out the heat all that well. I like the torque of the C myself but I am partisan.....

Go FE if you can since they are more authentic! Southern has a 406 FE rated at 435hp for 6k+ complete and that is not bad....
Jeff

[wtm442]

Aftermarket parts are RARE for the 351C. Stay with the 351W.

Where would you rather go on vacation .... Cleveland, OH or Windsor Canada?

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

C or W,

It is personnal choice, I have been in both and they are both strong running motors. Power is easy to acheive in both set-ups without SC and the extra heat it may cause. These underhoods do not spit out the heat all that well. I like the torque of the C myself but I am partisan.....

Torque is more a matter of compression ratio and cam timing than anything else. I'm sure I can build either engine with equal torque just as easy.

Go FE if you can since they are more authentic! Southern has a 406 FE rated at 435hp for 6k+ complete and that is not bad....
Jeff

That's not a very authentic engine. To be "authentic," it'd need to be a side-oiler, and that one's not. Just the induction alone to be "authentic" would cost more than $6k. Also, just because that engine is "rated" at 435 HP, doesn't mean it's a safe bet that it actually makes it.

BK

[bamcoc5]

Midstates Shell Valley make and sell Headers for the Cleveland. I have a set. I am in the process of installing the CHI Aussie heads and the new Edelbrock Air Gap Intake. I don't see a problem with after market parts availability for the Cleveland. Don't forget the Pantera Group.

[autoxmike]

Originally Posted by bamcoc5

Midstates Shell Valley make and sell Headers for the Cleveland. I have a set. I am in the process of installing the CHI Aussie heads and the new Edelbrock Air Gap Intake. I don't see a problem with after market parts availability for the Cleveland. Don't forget the Pantera Group.

I would love to hear how the new CHI heads work. I have a 408CI Clevor (Windsor Block, Cleveland heads) using the original 2V iron Cleveland heads and I have contemplated switching to CHI Cleveland heads.

I like the Clevor bastard engine. My Clevor stroker was built by my brother in 1992. At the time the selection of aftermarket heads was not what it is today. At the time it was a cheap way to get power from a SBF. It also looks more like a big block. And I hear that the Windsor block is stronger than the Cleveland.

[double ugly]

Originally Posted by jetenginedoctor

Torque is more a matter of compression ratio and cam timing than anything else. I'm sure I can build either engine with equal torque just as easy.



That's not a very authentic engine. To be "authentic," it'd need to be a side-oiler, and that one's not. Just the induction alone to be "authentic" would cost more than $6k. Also, just because that engine is "rated" at 435 HP, doesn't mean it's a safe bet that it actually makes it.

BK

Didn't the 428 Out number the 427 SO?

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by double ugly

Didn't the 428 Out number the 427 SO?

Huh? In what regard????? What exactly are you asking?

BK

[COBRA406]

Good on Ya Brian,
Accurate, and well explained. Much info on the Cleveland is hearsay and
rumor, not fact. If you want HP/$ the Windsor is the probable choice. But,
if you want a true screamer, with "hold on to your hat response" above
3K, then I choose Cleveland. Plus, nothing sounds better than a Cleveland
at wot. As we speak, a new Cleveland block is being modeled up by an
FE guy over on the Cleveland forum. THere is lots of interest out there
and with the Aussies' love affair with the Cleveland, there are plenty of
aftermarket parts here and there available if one wants to pursue it. What
we need Jetenginedoctor is a good FI system for the Cleveland. Not for everyone, for sure, but these are mostly copycars anyhow.
Bob T.

[David Hodgson]

Originally Posted by COBRA406

THere is lots of interest out there
and with the Aussies' love affair with the Cleveland, there are plenty of
aftermarket parts here and there available if one wants to pursue it. Bob T.

Love affair aarrgh, the big fat lump of a thing was thrust upon us by the very considerate heads at Ford who probably spent too much tooling up for production and in an economy like ours had to see it out.

The Clevo (335 series) was the only Ford V8 here for about 14 yrs, from '70 untill about '84 when Ford deleted V8's from from all passenger vehicles, then after a about a 4 year V8 drought introduced the 5.0 Windsor. We call the 302 and the 5.0's Windsor's because we also did a 302 version of the Clevo. Fully dressed this is a very good looking engine, but without alloy heads etc, very heavy.

Hence plenty of go fast bits. The 302 heads were 2V closed chamber and were essentialy the same castings as for the 351 and there were plenty of them, but most guys thought bigger was better and wouldn't settle for anything less than the 4V's

Under the hood of most late 80's and early 90's Cobra replica's here, you will find either a 351 C or 289 and 302 w. I don't know of any FE's and there are quite a number of 385's, mostly 429 Motec injected Robnell replica's.

Unfortunatly we aren't allowed as much free choice as you guy's, currently we have to comply with Euro III emissions levels, which means we have basically 2 options, the Ford 5.4 quad cam, again big and heavy, or a lot of guys, whom we refer to as the Dark Siders, are using the LS1 5.7 Chev. And I hate to admit it, theve got great output, 400hp, in standard trim, in a compact and lightweight package.

[COBRA406]

David H.,
I guess I used the term "love affair" inappropriately. Sorry for that, but the
forums for Clevelands I hang around all show some loyal support down under
for the Clevo. Guess maybe there is little choice for Ford loyalists there but
you all really get the job done performance wise and your performance parts
for the Clevo are all the best available quality wise. I know from reading that
you guys are up against some pretty strange emissions laws, and it makes
it very hard to build a cobra with what you want. I know you all can make
those V8s really scream! Dark side or not, good luck on your project (s).
Bob T.

[David Hodgson]

Bob, no appology required, it's like you said - kind of a forced love affair. If you were a Ford guy here in the 80's & 90's, you had no choice but to be loyal to what was dished up, and make the most of it, and that's what we did.

Back on the point of the original thread, unless your building a very close "replica", you should feel free to use what suits yourself. Because of our limited choice due to emissions laws, some guys have even had great success with 4.0 litre Lexus engines, and even better with turbo's.

I've got a 302 Windsor in mine, pushing about 310hp. Does me just fine.

Dave

[COBRA406]

Mike,
Clevor's are cool!! Unfortunately, the Streetboss and Trackboss intakes are
no longer made, that I know of. The best of both worlds, for sure. I don't
know, other than weight savings, if you would benefit that much just switching to the CHI's other than bumping your compression. A cam change
also along with the CHI's to a profile to take advantage of the closed
chambers, then pistons with the correct clearances, then money starts
entering the equation. Depends on what you are after, and assuming you
have open chamber 2V's now. Windsor's oiling system priorities are better
than the Clevelands, but even the 2 bolt Cleveland blocks will sustain big
HP. Hold on to that Clevor. Best of both.
Bob T.

[DavidNJ]

CHI has a revision of their 218 that is a 225. They also sell their own manifolds. CHI heads dominated the last small block (410) Engine Master Challenges and finished second in the first (366). Arguably (and there are lots of people who will argue) they are the best street SBF heads.

However, the Trick Flows, Edelbrocks (at least ported), and others are also very good. Most of the really trick SBF stuff (Yates, BT, CME) are race only $7000 and up heads. They, and even cast iron N1/N2 heads, require non-Windsor exhaust manifolds. Jegs sells a canted valve head that uses stock Windsor manifolds.

Most racing engines (all that I know of) use the 2.25" small Windsor main journal for less friction. They would use a 4340 or EN30B crank.

If you are planning to supercharge, you will need to go Windsor. I know of no off-the-shelf stuff to supercharge a Cleveland that will fit a Cobra. You could build a custom setup though; even using Rotrex superchargers.

Now, the bottom line. You aren't looking for that much power. A $8000 normally apirated 347 crate engine with carb or efi will meet those power levels. A blown 302 would probably be there also.