Any 351 Cleveland guys out there - need to ID block and heads

767Jockey · #1 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:22 AM

I take posession today of my Contemporary Cobra with a 351 Cleveland in it. Neither I nor the owner knows ANYTHING at all about the engine. I guess the logical place to start is with block and head numbers. Where do I find these on the heads and block? If I remove the oil pan (the engine is coming out of the car as soon as I get it) is there usually any identifying numbers on the insides of the pistons? If not, I won't even bother removong the pan, as the most I'll do to this engine is a cam change. Are the cam identifying numbers (either factory or aftermarket) usually on the front of the cam, or will I normally need to remove the cam completely to get an ID on it? Thanks.
Doug

Tony Aprile · #2 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:51 AM

Doug...Unless someone can come up with a way to identify the Cleveland from a 400 or 351M, I know there are books of that nature at S&K on 109..

767Jockey · #3 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Aprile

Doug...Unless someone can come up with a way to identify the Cleveland from a 400 or 351M, I know there are books of that nature at S&K on 109..

Tony,
Is S&K still open? Jeez, I haven't been there in over 25 years. I'll have to stop in. Are you home form Fla. yet?

Tony Aprile · #4 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 05:45 AM

I got back Friday, go back to work tomorrow !!

mrmustang · #5 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:57 AM

Doug,

First thing you need to do is drop the starter (or get a flashlight and a mirror) and get the casting number off the block, then the heads and post them here. Secondary to that, you need to check the bolt pattern for the bellhousing/scattershield as the 351C and 351/400M use a different pattern, the 351M/460 being the same as a 460......

767Jockey · #6 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Doug,

First thing you need to do is drop the starter (or get a flashlight and a mirror) and get the casting number off the block, then the heads and post them here. Secondary to that, you need to check the bolt pattern for the bellhousing/scattershield as the 351C and 351/400M use a different pattern, the 351M/460 being the same as a 460......

All I have so far is the bolt pattern on the bellhousing. There appears to be 6 total. Two are in a line across the top, I'm guessing about 6 inches apart. There are two running down each side of the block from the top two. The passengers side bottom bolt is just above the starter. Please tell me this is a Cleveland and not a M engine. Please........
Block and head numbers to follow after I source a new jack.

ccx1984 · #7 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:26 PM

check the top of the engine block back of the drivers side head, there is a number stamped on the block, should start with a H. I have a contempory with a 1981 chassie number and a 351 cleveland with a borg warner T-10.give me a call (985)643-5851 i might have some info you could use.found my ccx in jacksonville, fla. 4/06.

Woodz428 · #8 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:34 PM

Well you DO have a 351C, because the intake you mentioned only works on a Cleveland, not a 351M or 400. A 2V intake can be used on 4V heads, but isn't as effective. You can tell what heads you have by looking at the upper corner and see the number there. Unless some 351M or 400 heads have been used( they fit) it should have either a 2 or 4 for the kind of head it is.Someone familiar with the engine can also look at the exhaust flange and see the differences that would distinguish the 2. If there is no 2 or 4 in the upper corner of the head,by the intake and above the valve cover, it would be safe to assume they are later heads and only the 2v type.

767Jockey · #9 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodz428

Well you DO have a 351C, because the intake you mentioned only works on a Cleveland, not a 351M or 400. A 2V intake can be used on 4V heads, but isn't as effective. You can tell what heads you have by looking at the upper corner and see the number there. Unless some 351M or 400 heads have been used( they fit) it should have either a 2 or 4 for the kind of head it is.Someone familiar with the engine can also look at the exhaust flange and see the differences that would distinguish the 2. If there is no 2 or 4 in the upper corner of the head,by the intake and above the valve cover, it would be safe to assume they are later heads and only the 2v type.

Yeah, unfortunately I found a 2, clear as day. I guess the engines a slug, no? Is there any hope for this one, or shold I just run it as is until I can afford a better one? What do you guys think - what's the potential power output for this engine? Are any of you running a 2V? I'm bummed.

trularin · #10 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 06:29 AM

Doug, why are you pulling the engine?

If you are, then yank it first, then get the numbers.

There are a few mods you may want to do if you are going to keep the engine.

767Jockey · #11 (**permalink**) 01-22-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trularin

Doug, why are you pulling the engine?

If you are, then yank it first, then get the numbers.

There are a few mods you may want to do if you are going to keep the engine.

I'm pulling it primarily becaue I have no idea what's inside of it, and I have to change the trans anyway, so I might as well start fresh. The car was cosmetically neglected, so having the engine bay empty will allow me to spend lots of time sprucing things up in there as well.

The good news is I got the car today, finally. The deal is complete, the car is home and it's mine. Finally. Now for the bad news. My trusty floor jack of so many years died on the third pump as I tried to life the car. Therefore, no block numbers. That's ok, I want to do a compression check anyway to see what shape the rings are in.

All I have so far about the engine is this:
Carb = Holley 4bbl, vac sec., elec choke. Numbers on carb horn are: LIST-6919 below that line is:0952. Anyone know what size carb this is? The engine runs like hell now, stumbling and such - is this carb worth rebuilding, assuming it's the carb?

Edelbrock intake is F351 2V. As soon as I saw the 2V I assume that the heads are 2V heads. Does that sound right to you guys? Are 2V heads bad? How much do they limit the power I can make? Does it even pay to put a cam in here?

It has a MSD distributor and box - that's good news. I'll get the block and head numbers out after I scrounge up a new jack. Lastly, probably a silly question, but exactly how does an electric choke work? I've never had one. Does it just generate heat on it's own and gradually open the choke plate? How do you check if it's working? How do you fix it if it doesn't? I think if I keep this carb I'll just replace it with a manual choke - does that sound like a good idea? Thanks.
Doug

trularin · #12 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 11:29 AM

IMHO it is not a slug, but then again, that's my opinion.

767Jockey · #13 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 01:36 PM

I've gotten some great replies and I'm encouraged that I can get some useful horsepower from this engine without spending a fortune. Thanks, guys.

55312 · #14 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 03:31 PM

I'm just an impartial observer here but I'm dumbfounded by your skepticism on this engine.

The Cleveland has a very storied history and is a GREAT engine design. You can get a ton of horsepower out of this motor and have something fairly unique and very servicable. Look into the "Clevor" conversion with the Australian 2v heads or match a cam and intake to the 4v heads. This motor breaths like a true big block and if I were to build another motor, other than an FE, it would be a Cleveland! All those Panteras weren't slugs!

Tim

Power Surge · #15 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 55312

I'm just an impartial observer here but I'm dumbfounded by your skepticism on this engine.

The Cleveland has a very storied history and is a GREAT engine design. You can get a ton of horsepower out of this motor and have something fairly unique and very servicable. Look into the "Clevor" conversion with the Australian 2v heads or match a cam and intake to the 4v heads. This motor breaths like a true big block and if I were to build another motor, other than an FE, it would be a Cleveland! All those Panteras weren't slugs!

Tim

A Clevor is Cleveland heads on a Windsor block, aka "aftermarket" Boss 302 type motor. IMO, that's the best small block setup, but expensive to build and hard to find intakes anymore.

Doug, don't sweat the 2V heads. You WANT the 2V heads. The 4V heads are too much for a street driven car.

A 351C is basically like a mini-460, with the same canted valve head configuration. They are great motors. The reason they never because as popular as other Ford motors, is because they needed a lot of work to spin them hard, because of their unique main size. That's what made the Boss 302 a killer motor- high winding Windsor short block, with crazy Cleveland heads.

If you want to talk to someone local about Clevelands, talk to Jeff Lawrence (Lawrence Racing Engines). He's a Cleveland nut, and runs low 9s with a Cleveland in a Fox body Mustang in NHRA stock class.

55312 · #16 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 03:58 PM

Sal - your right. Mea Culpa on the Cleavor. Still a good motor though.

Tim

AK1234 · #17 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 04:28 PM

Clevor motors are the best combination of Ford Small block on the market as the NASCAR motors are based on the that combination. There are so many parts made by both factory and after market .. and still Edlebrock makes a great intake for this combo new. At present I'm building a 377 Stroker which is a W block and C heads .. conservatively this motor will make 600hp.

The C motor you speak about with 2V heads is a good motor and the F351 intake is also a good intake. If you do the research most of the high horsepower heads appear to be using smaller ports more like the 2v heads.
There a lot of talk about oiling problems on the C motor ... I guess if your racing ot at 7000 rpm. There is poeple who can get 500hp out of a C with Ci intake and Ci exhaust manifolds. There was a builder in Hemmings last year.

There were also a heavy duty block called an XE block made for a C ... and theres talk on the Pantera site that someone is casting a HD block aftermarket C block.

Hope this helps .. you have agood motor and theres a lot of parts available for it.

Ron

AK1234 · #18 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 06:54 PM

I suggest anyone owning a Ford motor theres this publication that I purchased back in 1988 .. " High Perfomance FORD Engine Parts Interchange " It has every part # for every Ford motor made .. except my XE Block. LOL

yes the 351 C forum is great ... they just psoted the results of my Buddies 351 Clevor dyno test 713 HP @ 7000 rpm's now thats a Ford Motor going in a Pantera.

autoxmike · #19 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 08:02 PM

I think the casting number on the head may be in the underside of the exhaust port. Maybe use a mirror if the motor is still in the car?

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/s...=42578&cat=500

spl310 · #20 (**permalink**) 01-23-2007, 09:45 PM

Putting Cleveland heads on a Windsor block basically gives you a poor man's Boss 302. As many have said, the sewer pipes of the 4bbl heads are wasted on the street - you actually develop more useful power out of the 2bbl heads. I recall seeing photos of a 4bbl head that had the ports filled to be optimized for flow - they were reduced in size substantially.