Club Cobra Keith Craft Racing  

Go Back   Club Cobra > Engine Building, Tuning, and Induction > Small Block Talk

Keith Craft Racing
Nevada Classics
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
Keith Craft Racing
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
Keith Craft Racing
MMG Superformance
Keith Craft Racing
March 2024
S M T W T F S
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            

Kirkham Motorsports

Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By pormgb
  • 1 Post By Tommy

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2017, 09:16 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harrison Twp, MI
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF Coupe #136, 427SR FI
Posts: 296
Not Ranked     
Default Starter does not activate once in a while

Hey Gang

Need some wisdom please...here's the scenario. This has happened twice in about 400 miles (6-8 weeks apart) and the exact same scenario.

Drive about 10-15 miles. Car is at full operating temperatures.
Pull into get gas (yes on both occasions)
After filling up hit the switch and nothing from the starter. No noise, no click, no nothing...silent. When I hit the switch I see the lights dim a pinch so I know it is sending current to the starter.
All other electrical functions properly.
The volt meter at this moment reads like 9 volts.
Let sit. First time was 15 minutes. Today was 10 minutes.
Fires right up.

Here's what I have done:

After the first occurrence got a new battery.
Tested the alternator - tested fine.
After today check the power and ground cables. Cleaned ends all good.
Went out for another ride today (only difference didnt stop at a gas station) got her good and hot and restarted MANY times just fine.
While driving the volt meter shows 14 +/-

Any thoughts on next steps (beside not going to gas stations...hehe)?

Thanks in advance.

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2017, 09:48 AM
Banned
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Cobra Make, Engine: Rowan Replicars, 352 4V
Posts: 94
Not Ranked     
Default

I had a similar problem on my LS6 swapped Porsche 944, the starter would not turn after the car reached its full temperature then sat for a few minutes, if I drove the car hot then restarted it, it would start right up. Since you are seeing a power drain, power is getting to the starter, it sucking almost all available amps.

My issue was related to the close proximity of my starter to the exhaust headers and the stock starter could not handle the heat, I think it was heat soak why it would not turn once the car sat for a few minutes.

I replaced the stock starter with a high torque gear reduction starter and the problem went away, I also use a high torque starter the 352 in my Cobra.
Pete Munroe likes this.
__________________

Rowan Replicars 1965 Cobra Replica
352 4V, T5, Jaguar Posi rear end with 3.30 gears.
https://www.facebook.com/pormgb/
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:51 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harrison Twp, MI
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF Coupe #136, 427SR FI
Posts: 296
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pormgb View Post
I had a similar problem on my LS6 swapped Porsche 944, the starter would not turn after the car reached its full temperature then sat for a few minutes, if I drove the car hot then restarted it, it would start right up. Since you are seeing a power drain, power is getting to the starter, it sucking almost all available amps.

My issue was related to the close proximity of my starter to the exhaust headers and the stock starter could not handle the heat, I think it was heat soak why it would not turn once the car sat for a few minutes.

I replaced the stock starter with a high torque gear reduction starter and the problem went away, I also use a high torque starter the 352 in my Cobra.
THanks!

The other possibility I just thought of is the clutch depression switch which only allows the car to start when the clutch is fully depressed. Although it is not located in an area subjected to major heat (if that was the case it would also impact the brake light switch as they are co-located) it is a link in the starter circuit. I will run a jump wire in the event it happens again and I can easy jump the circuit to diagnose if that is causing the problem.

THanks

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:08 AM
Tommy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dadeville, AL
Cobra Make, Engine: Sold my EM.
Posts: 2,433
Not Ranked     
Default

This can be hard to diagnose if it only happens occasionally, but here are my thoughts. If you are seeing a strong drain on the system when you engage the starter, but nothing else is happening, it is not likely the clutch safety switch. That would interrupt the signal from the ignition switch to the starter so there would be no drain. .... My guess is that the heat is causing an intenal short inside the starter. That would explain both the large current drain and the lack of starter movement. ... The only way I know to confirm this is to bypass all the external wiring and manually supply power to the starter with a jumper cable. This can be dangerous so use extreme caution (e.g., out of gear, wheels chocked, don't touch the wrong thing with the hot jumper cable). Plus it will only confirm the starter as the problem if it failed to work immediately before the test. If you let the car sit for a while before you jump it, you won't know if it cooled enough to "fix" itself.

If this were my car I'd first check to see if there was any way to shield the starter from exhaust heat (e.g, wrapping on starter, wrapping on exhaust, metal shield between the two). If it was already shielded or there was nothing that could be done, I'd get a new starter as was mentioned above.

Good luck sorting this out.
Pete Munroe likes this.
__________________
Tommy
Cheetah tribute completed 2021 (TommysCars.Weebly.com)
Previously owned EM Cobra
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:25 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harrison Twp, MI
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF Coupe #136, 427SR FI
Posts: 296
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
This can be hard to diagnose if it only happens occasionally, but here are my thoughts. If you are seeing a strong drain on the system when you engage the starter, but nothing else is happening, it is not likely the clutch safety switch. That would interrupt the signal from the ignition switch to the starter so there would be no drain. .... My guess is that the heat is causing an intenal short inside the starter. That would explain both the large current drain and the lack of starter movement. ... The only way I know to confirm this is to bypass all the external wiring and manually supply power to the starter with a jumper cable. This can be dangerous so use extreme caution (e.g., out of gear, wheels chocked, don't touch the wrong thing with the hot jumper cable). Plus it will only confirm the starter as the problem if it failed to work immediately before the test. If you let the car sit for a while before you jump it, you won't know if it cooled enough to "fix" itself.

If this were my car I'd first check to see if there was any way to shield the starter from exhaust heat (e.g, wrapping on starter, wrapping on exhaust, metal shield between the two). If it was already shielded or there was nothing that could be done, I'd get a new starter as was mentioned above.

Good luck sorting this out.
Hi Tommy - appreciate your insights.

Regarding exhaust heat this is a Daytona Coupe and the headers rise up and out the side; i.e. they are not hear the starter. I was going to start with a starter heat shield but that would only cover up the root cause and make me feel good for the moment.

Good point on the clutch safety switch.

All things point to the starter.

Take care,

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2017, 06:25 AM
HI Cobra's Avatar
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Montgomery, TX
Cobra Make, Engine: CR 427 S/C, 351W, 5 Sp & KMP142 - 427 SO, 4 Spd
Posts: 2,212
Not Ranked     
Default

I had a similar problem on my Kirkham awhile ago which got to where if
I stopped anywhere, then tried to start it after about 2 minutes, nothing would
happen. It was a heat soak situation with the MSD 6a1 which was mounted on
the passenger side fire wall in the cockpit. I sent it to El Paso for checkup and
aout $36 and 2 weeks later got it back - end of problem. (They replaced some
electrical components that had gone bad on it)

If you have the MSD 6a1 or similar, and find no problems with the starter, you
might want to check it out.
__________________
Flip
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2017, 06:27 AM
Ron61's Avatar
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Shasta Lake, CA
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 26,552
Not Ranked     
Default

Jeff,

I had that happen on my car a few years ago and after trying several things I got a new gear reduction starter and it has been in there for about 6 years now and no problem at all. I never had the old one checked out but a starter shop here told me it most likely had a winding that was shortening out after it got warm.

Ron
__________________
Ron 61
Ronnie Widener


View my Miscellaneous Gallery
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2017, 02:49 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harrison Twp, MI
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF Coupe #136, 427SR FI
Posts: 296
Not Ranked     
Default

Thanks everyone for the very helpful feedback. After checking anything wiring related I took the starter in to the rebuild shop and they said there was evidence of damage in the starter that would impact turning when hot. They should me some wire/connecter and it looked shot.

Thanks again.

Jeff
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy
Links monetized by VigLink