Crank Damper Timing Marks!!

[iwantacobra427]

I pinned the flywheel and torqued the crank damper bolt to spec but now the TDC mark of '0' is underneath the timing indicator. The '0' on the inner scale (closest to the timing cover) is TDC. I can simply paint a white mark on the outer edge for the TDC mark but more importantly I just read that the static timing will probably be ~ 10 -12 BTDC and dynamic ~ 32 - 34 BTDC!! I don't have any BTDC marks before the TDC mark with the current position... What do I need to do? Pull off the damper and use one of the other timing scales on the damper?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by iwantacobra427

I pinned the flywheel and torqued the crank damper bolt to spec but now the TDC mark of '0' is underneath the timing indicator.....What do I need to do?

You simply fabricate your timing pointer so that it points to the 0 mark on your balancer when your engine is at TDC. Scratch a mark on your pointer to mark where it should be and then remove it and cut it to point properly. You will see on my pointer below that mine needed a little extra metal tacked on to point exactly to TDC. You will also see my bright orange line at 35 degrees. That's where I set my timing at 3500RPM -- I do not set my timing at idle.

[iwantacobra427]

For me I think putting timing tape on it will be easier.. Has anyone used timing tape? If I go with the tape do I run the tape to the left of the TDC since the Ford timing it Before TDC? I'm confused.. all the numbers run to the right of the TDC mark on my damper..

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by iwantacobra427

For me I think putting timing tape on it will be easier.. Has anyone used timing tape?

Timing tape will not stay on -- they shouldn't even sell it as any sort of permanent fix. Remember, you only need one single mark, and that is your total timing as it is relative to your existing pointer position. It really doesn't even matter if your timing pointer is, say, 7 or 8 degrees off of "true." All you need to do is calculate what your total timing should be, rotate your engine to that point, and then mark a line at that position so it lines up with your existing pointer position. You then time your engine to that point at an RPM where all of your advance is in. If you do it this way, you will never have to do it again. Ever. For the life of the car. Never, never, again. Done. Finis.

[patrickt]

Here, I cleaned up my balancer a little bit and put a drop of yellow paint on the 10 degree mark and the 20 degree mark -- you don't really need these, all you need is your total advance, but I put them on anyway so I could take a video of the timing at idle. The silver bushing on my MSD distributor gives me roughly 25 degrees of advance, not quite, but almost. You can see my idle is about 850. If my timing is set correctly to have 35 degrees at 3500RPM than my curb idle should be at 10, or just over (that's the first yellow dot). Here's a timing video that I took. http://fetiming.kickme.to/ The purpose of doing this is to show you that you don't need to bother busting your butt to calibrate your balancer -- just use some EZ to see marks that are positioned on the correct spots. Once you get your timing set, it should stay there. If it moves around after your engine is broken in, then there's something wrong.

[blykins]

Hold up....

I think something else is amiss.

That balancer is used for all SBF's....with a SBF, you can have the pointer in 3 different spots...10:00, 11:00, and 2:00.

I just used that exact balancer on a 445W build up and didn't have any problems.

Here's what I would advise:

Do you have a degree wheel? I would find true TDC with a degree wheel and a piston stop. Then you'll know exactly where TDC is and you can put your pointer in the right spot. Something else is up....and you need to verify that your TDC is correct and then you can put your pointer in the right spot. I bought an adjustable pointer, that way I could put it anywhere in the 10-11:00 positions.

Also, another tip for quick starting.....when you verify TDC and get your pointer lined out, put your pointer at about 20 degrees BTDC (make sure #1 is on compression stroke). Then stab your distributor in and point the rotor at the #1 plug wire.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Hold up....

I think something else is amiss.

That balancer is used for all SBF's....with a SBF, you can have the pointer in 3 different spots...10:00, 11:00, and 2:00.

I just used that exact balancer on a 445W build up and didn't have any problems.

Here's what I would advise:

Do you have a degree wheel? I would find true TDC with a degree wheel and a piston stop. Then you'll know exactly where TDC is and you can put your pointer in the right spot. Something else is up....and you need to verify that your TDC is correct and then you can put your pointer in the right spot. I bought an adjustable pointer, that way I could put it anywhere in the 10-11:00 positions.

Also, another tip for quick starting.....when you verify TDC and get your pointer lined out, put your pointer at about 20 degrees BTDC (make sure #1 is on compression stroke). Then stab your distributor in and point the rotor at the #1 plug wire.

All that and no mention of my video???

[blykins]

Sorry Patrick....didn't read your post.

I think he's got something else going on and I hate to see him struggle with a fresh startup when the timing is like 60° off or something....LOL

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Sorry Patrick....didn't read your post.

Ehhhrgggg....

Originally Posted by blykins

I think he's got something else going on and I hate to see him struggle with a fresh startup when the timing is like 60° off or something....LOL

Well, if that's the case then we get a chance to test the ol' urban myth of the engine running backwards....

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I always put my balancer on before putting on the heads, that way I can get the timing marks right.... After putting the balancer on, I bring #1 to TDC and set my pointer to TDC on the balancer.....Only on one occasion did things not match up, so I marked TDC on the balancer and used a timing tape to mark things every 10 degress up to 40 degrees.... Since I wanted 35 degrees total timing, I marked that also, using a different color paint.......

If your balancer is that much off, I would check out a few things before going further, you may have the wrong balancer or the cam be be way out of whack......As Blykins posted, there are 3 different positions for the pointer on SBF engines.....and I have seen no less than 4 different timing pointers, depending on year model........

One other thing I always do; after getting the pointer and timing marks where they line up correctly, I take a Sharpie and outline the pointer on the timing chain cover, that way if I have to take it off for some reason, I can put it back in the same exact spot....

David

[patrickt]

iwantacobra427 -- did you keep the stock crank in there? Or did you go with something a "little completely different?"

[blykins]

I'm not familiar with 302 strokers, but a 331 is an aftermarket crankshaft, right? 3.25" compared to 3"?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

I'm not familiar with 302 strokers, but a 331 is an aftermarket crankshaft, right? 3.25" compared to 3"?

Trick question: If you replace your stock crank with a stroker crank have you changed the relative orientation of TDC?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Trick question: If you replace your stock crank with a stroker crank have you changed the relative orientation of TDC?

I don't know, but on my 331, I put the pointer in the standard,stock location and it lined up perfectly with TDC, but it also has an aftermarket performance balancer on it......not a stock OEM balancer....

David

[blykins]

Patrick, relative to what?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Patrick, relative to what?

Well, obviously I can't fool you so I'll crawl back in to my hole....

[iwantacobra427]

Originally Posted by blykins

Hold up....

I think something else is amiss.

That balancer is used for all SBF's....with a SBF, you can have the pointer in 3 different spots...10:00, 11:00, and 2:00.

I just used that exact balancer on a 445W build up and didn't have any problems.

Here's what I would advise:

Do you have a degree wheel? I would find true TDC with a degree wheel and a piston stop. Then you'll know exactly where TDC is and you can put your pointer in the right spot. Something else is up....and you need to verify that your TDC is correct and then you can put your pointer in the right spot. I bought an adjustable pointer, that way I could put it anywhere in the 10-11:00 positions.

Also, another tip for quick starting.....when you verify TDC and get your pointer lined out, put your pointer at about 20 degrees BTDC (make sure #1 is on compression stroke). Then stab your distributor in and point the rotor at the #1 plug wire.

I had a builder do a semi-long block for me. They installed the pistons, crank, cam, timing set, and heads. I asked them to degree the cam (I don't have a degree wheel but read about degreeing a cam). I did the rest: oil pump/pan, timing cover, water pump, intake, etc.. I put the crank damper on last year as tight as I could without having the flywheel on. I'm pretty sure I did it correctly. I had a few books to reference. I found TDC for No. 1 cylinder, installed the timing pointer at the 10 o'clock position and lined up the '0' on the damper with it. I just got the flywheel on this past weekend and torqued the damper down. That's how I lost the timing mark under the pointer. I still don't understand why the damper doesn't have a scale to the left of the '0' mark. When I go to do the idle timing where is 10 or 12 BTDC on the damper??? That's why I was thinking of running timing tape to the left of TDC. I'm still weeks away from starting up the car.. I'm working on the engine and car at the same time.. I guess it's cheap insurance to double check TDC. Do the spark plug entry piston stops work well? I guess they are less accurately when compared with the head being off and the stop at the top? I definitely don't feel like taking the intake and heads off..
Do I have to take the damper off to use the degree wheel?

[iwantacobra427]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Here, I cleaned up my balancer a little bit and put a drop of yellow paint on the 10 degree mark and the 20 degree mark -- you don't really need these, all you need is your total advance, but I put them on anyway so I could take a video of the timing at idle. The silver bushing on my MSD distributor gives me roughly 25 degrees of advance, not quite, but almost. You can see my idle is about 850. If my timing is set correctly to have 35 degrees at 3500RPM than my curb idle should be at 10, or just over (that's the first yellow dot). Here's a timing video that I took. http://fetiming.kickme.to/ The purpose of doing this is to show you that you don't need to bother busting your butt to calibrate your balancer -- just use some EZ to see marks that are positioned on the correct spots. Once you get your timing set, it should stay there. If it moves around after your engine is broken in, then there's something wrong.

I understand what you're saying to a point.. You're asking me to estimate what my total timing should be? I guess 32 - 36 degrees? I know that I have to check the idle timing first. I've done that on several cars over the years.. But I've never checked or changed the advanced timing with a car at 3000 - 3500 rpm. I have a MSD system (6AL?) with a billet distributor. Like I said in my first email.. I don't even understand why the damper doesn't have a BTDC scale when it's specifically designed for a Ford! My
Ford reference books state the static (idle) timing to be 10 or 12 BTDC and total timing to be around 34 or 36 BTDC. At this point I'm just thinking about getting it started in a few weeks and take it somewhere for fine tuning.. I'm just a novice here..

[blykins]

OK...the scale for BTDC should be to the right of the 0° mark. Think about it...direction of crank rotation is clockwise as you're facing the engine. As you're rotating the engine over, the pointer is going to come to degree marks to the right of the 0 first....because that's BEFORE top dead center. Make sense? As you turn the crankshaft some more, and the pointer passes the 0, it's going to be AFTER top dead center.

So let me understand something better.....how did you know you were at TDC without a piston stop or a previous harmonic balancer to read off of? You can't really eyeball it and be dead on....you really need to use a piston stop because the crank actually rotates several degrees while the piston is stationary at TDC. Chances are that everything is ok, but I think it would be good insurance to double check everything...and it's not difficult.

Spark plug piston stops are easy to use and they're effective. You can use your degree wheel with the balancer on it.

If you want, PM me and I'll give you my phone number. Sometimes this is easier to explain when someone is talking to you.

[iwantacobra427]

Originally Posted by patrickt

iwantacobra427 -- did you keep the stock crank in there? Or did you go with something a "little completely different?"

The crank is the builders in-house steel 3.250 stroker crank.