Opinions of Builders of Superformance Cars

[EM65Cobra]

I was looking at BDR for a new build but someone convinced me to seriously consider Superformance as well (or instead of) as well as Factory Five.

Short history to explain why I'm here asking:

Cobra V1 - I purchased my first EM Cobra about 2 years ago with a blown motor and tranny. I had a local rod shop put a 347 stroker motor with a large street cam and a Demon carb. It has an AOD trans. Motor and Trans have about 1k miles on them since install. Car looks great and has a tan soft top for it. It's been dressed up a good bit. Per a request from the wife I'm part way through adding AC via the Vintage Air Front Runner System. Engine bay part is done. Just need to install the cabin side. Here's some pics: https://mightytext.net/zFYtS3

It gets tons of attention. I love it but with the solid rear 9" axle and not enough HP it didn't have the performance on the track I was looking for.

Cobra V2 - I ended up picking me up another EM Cobra that I had planned on autocrossing and road tracking. This one I put a new paint job on it but otherwise is pretty much as I got it. It has a 410 stroker motor with a Richmond 5 speed. This one however has the Corvette suspension on both front and rear so it has good power and great handling. Here's some pics of it: https://mightytext.net/zPhP6l

So now that I've owned and driven two very different cobras I've learned what I like and don't like so my plan is to sell both and have a BDR made with the best of both worlds exactly as I want it. I don't want to spend the time or money to make all of the mods I'd want to do to get either of the EM Cobras to be my "perfect" version of the car I'm looking for.

So I'm considering having a car built "professionally" for me by either the factory or a builder/dealer. One person told me about Olthoff Racing in NC but I'm open to hear of others as well that folks would recommend. Since I live in South Carolina east of the Mississippi would be preferred.

I'll probably go with a custom color and I have some very specific interior design ideas that I'd like to incorporate (i.e. - not the standard look).

I'm planning on having a car (when it's finished) that's a bit more towards a show car status like the V1 but with a more powerful powerplant, better suspension, better transmission. While we love to show the car we also want one that is great for LONG drives (so reliable), comfortable in the cabin (so soft and hard tops), but still has the racing capability to keep me entertained.

Having both a soft and hard top is for the wife. If she's happy we'll be driving it more. :-) Same with the headrests, twin roll bars, A/C and heat.

As far as reliability and power it sounds like a Coyote engine is the best bet, or at least a stroked out small block with fuel injection. How much HP in reality can the Cobras handle without being almost useless? I'm not going to "professionally" race the car but I do want to do autox and track days so I want as much as it can reasonably handle.

What are the major pros/cons over the Coyote vs a SBF with fuel injection (assuming both are well built from scratch - not donors)?

I realize this is a SPF thread but what are your feelings about the SPF vs. FFR or BDR? Please, no bashing, just your honest comparison if you've got experience with more than just SPF.

So besides the above questiosn, the only other one I'm trying to figure out is which engine and tranny package I should go with:
* I want it to look good
* I want it to be 500+ hp
* I want it to be reliable

The last question is from the guys that have SPFs, what options do you wish you had gotten and/or wish you had not gotten in your cars?

Looking forward to your thoughts,

Thanks, Brian

[twobjshelbys]

Car show cobras don't have a coyote engine

[twobjshelbys]

Why did ypu post this again?5

[Mark IV]

There are several good installers with SPF experience on the East Coast but based on your location and our experience I would put Olthoff Racing in a solid first place. Dennis has done numerous cars for our customers. He will refuse to do something that does not work and has no problem with telling the emperor he has no clothes.

Custom color/stripes are available on an SPF vis factory order. Recently there have been several MK IIIs done with unique colors from the Lambo/Porsche/Etc. palette as well as some unique stripe colors and patterns. A recent option is a "diamond pattern" sewing for the seats and tunnel. We can provide a chassis to meet your concept with the boundaries of the basic product. Headrests, twin roll bars, etc. are available. As to changes in the dash, etc. they will done by the dealer or installer. We have done heated seats in a MK III for a customer, basically anything that does not compromise the factory integrity is available.

Our experience with a hardtop mostly involves delivering the car with the top which is then removed to a garage corner where it resides for the duration. We really only have had one customer that used his hardtop much....and he winter drove his car here in New York (a balmy -2 degrees as I type this) so you may want to reconsider investing the cost of a hardtop in other areas. Really, if you need the hardtop to drive, you likely are not gonna take the Cobra on that drive.

The SPF suspension is very adjustable with coil-over shock/springs which make ride height easy to set as well as full caster/camber adjustment as compared to some chassis' that use "take-off" sedan type setups.

The horsepower question is dependent upon your suspension and tires. 15", 17" or 18" wheels? With the right stuff you can put down 800 HP. With BFG TA's you can't use 400. Don't be a "bench racer" bragging about 750 HP in a car that you can't drive even mildly hard because it doesn't work and can't handle the power. Balance is the key, good linear power, confident suspension and proper chassis setup with 500 HP will beat a poorly setup 800 HP beast.

[1795]

I would concur with Rick, in that if your are considering an SPF and are in the south east, then Dennis Olthoff is at the top of the list. Dennis and Rick helped me with my build, and I have no complaints. There is a ton of experience and support there, and as Rick said, Dennis will let you know if he thinks that you are going in the wrong direction with your build. I would rather have someone tell me that he thought I was making a mistake, than someone who would kiss my butt and tell me what I wanted to hear just so that they could make some money.

Do your research.

[Jim Vander Wal]

I've worked with Dennis many times and he's always treated me well. As previously stated he's not shy, pretty much the opposite, and you won't be lacking for his opinion.

That said, I've sold my two SPFs, one for financial reasons, the other was damaged and I just didn't have it in me to fix it. Purchased a FFR Challenge Car w/ IRS. I'm building a streetable track car. Won't ever have the pretty paint, top or even swinging doors but it will be lighter and safer. The body is also way cheaper to replace if you're not picky on paint and finish quality.

Power. My engine is an aluminum 427w with about 440rwhp and 425rwtqe. There's nothing undriveable about it if your right foot is well connected to your brain; if you're stupid you'll have problems. I had the same engine in both SPFs and it will be in the FFR. TKO600-.64, 3.27 gears, 17inch F/R tires.

Jim

[Blas]

Dennis also races a Superformance Cobra, so you will benefit from his first hand knowledge as to what works and what does not. His crew of people working at his shop are also top notch... so with so many different hands that take pride in their work assembling your Cobra, you will be pleased with the result.
Blas

[olddog]

For auto-cross the tires and chassis are more important than the engine.

For the average guy who just wants to have fun, the flatter the torque curve on the engine the better.

More CID and less cam is the easiest way I know to get a flat torque curve. A 351 Windsor aftermarket 4.125 bore block and a 4" stroke, would be my first pick. The heads make the engine. I would have to give that some thought. Craft sells a special CNC ported Brodix head that would be high on my list. Brent Lykins in Kentucky would be happy to custom build you an engine.

I have watched a lot of Cobras run at London Ohio Cobra show, both at the burn out runs and the Auto-cross. I see a lot of Carb problems with fuel sloshing away from the jets during acceleration and cornering. Some go so rich the pipes are pushing black smoke. You just don't see that with EFI. A good multi port EFI solves all types of problems. It can also be used to flatten the torque curve by pulling a bit of timing to kill some power at a midrange, if you desired.

Experts on here have done some pretty fair tests and proven that a carb will make more power than EFI. I do not understand why, but I do not question their attempt to do a fair test. I do not think that matters in your case, as you could easily build more power than you can use. You want good drive-ability.

[Mark IV]

Also if you are looking at a Superformance vs. a BDR keep in mind some the items standard on the SPF:

Limited slip diff
Heater/defroster
Chrome over brass windshield frame
Battery box integrated into trunk
No recycled parts
Oil cooler and hoses
Several others we can document if you wish further info

Some of the items we have such as the original style gages and seats may not fit with your build vision, but can be modified. It appears you are looking for a "hot rod" that visually apes a "Cobra" more than a traditional Cobra.

[Jim Vander Wal]

Brian,

To add to my earlier reply.

I added a full width roll bar to both of my SPF cars, #1855 & #2584. The factory bars are not track rated but most tracks will let you run unless the organizing group is picky. 2584 came with twin roll bars, I don't like these at all and changed to the wide single during the first year.
In 1855 I changed to the Torsen diff and 3.27 gears. Both are my preference.
Swapped belts to the cam lock variety rather than latch & link
Used the top twice in 60k miles between the two cars. It's easier to get wet and dry out and not significantly less effective.
I liked the glove box.
Used the tonneau a lot.
Ran 275/40-17 and 315 or 335/35 -17s. Started with 15s for 6 weeks before changing and never looked back.
Added a 2nd driveshaft hoop. The SPF hoop is marginal.
Headlights need an immediate upgrade. I like the Hella 7" H4 conversions.
Taillights are in need of an upgrade, properly designed LEDs can help.

The SPF can be very comfortable, I ran MI to CO to MT twice. MI to CO. MI to VIR twice and many other day trips.

On Backdraft, a friend has one.
Nice car, wider in the back and maybe longer. Might be a 92 or 93" wheelbase.
The BMW suspension is way different than the SPF suspension.
Similar brakes to SPF.
Seats are thinner than the SPFs
Build quality seems to be good but I don't think it's as good as the SPF.

My FFR isn't near finished so I can't comment on anything other than parts.

Jim

[Three Peaks]

From your description of your wants and needs, the only choice I can see would be the Factory Five. From a base kit with some add-on options, you can modify to your hearts content much easier than the others mentioned IMO.
From IRS rear for autocross and track work, to modifying the seating arrangement, to double roll bars, to any engine you want to install, adjustable suspension, multiple brake options, as many options for your dash, console, etc.. as you can imagine, and soft and hard tops available.
And there are many FF5 builders who do great work and know these cars and what it takes to make them reliable, safe, and fast- or whatever you are looking to accomplish.

Just my 2 cent's worth- and I don't even own a Factory Five---

Bob

[NewYorkGuy]

Make the wife happy , buy a 2018 corvette.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

Make the wife happy , buy a 2018 corvette.

Why? He's owned two Cobra replica's previously. He obviously is experienced and knowledgeable of the Cobra hobby, knows some of the pitfalls and what goes with driving one. And he obviously knows what direction he wants to go with his 3rd one. Why should he consider a Corvette? Seems like a nonsense response.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Seems like a nonsense response.

Dan,
consider the poster.................

[EM65Cobra]

Mark IV, 1795, Jim, Blas - I'm glad to hear of another happy Olthoff customer. I am still trying to figure out the pros/cons of SPF, BDR and FFR and the builders seem to specialize so it may also come down to the builder I like best that's also not very far away.

I do like what you and 1795 said about getting straight advice from a builder and not just saying yes if it doesn't make sense. That is what I want and would appreciate. That and getting down to the final decisions on what things affect other things. To many decisions are interelated so it is a bit confusing and I'm finding I don't know enough to even know what all the options are. So having a professional shop guide me will be key and is part of my decision making process. That includes the final engine, drive train, suspension, tires and wheels selections.

I've seen most of what I want to do on one car or another so none of what I want is actually new or to far out of the box, it's just that I don't think I'd find what I'm looking for in the open re-sale market so I'm figuring I'm going to have to have it built. But if I came across a car that was nearly perfect and the things that weren't perfect were easy enough to change I'd certainly consider buying a finished car and then having those items tweaked.

TwoBJShelbys - I was leaning towards a BDR but now after some conversations with folks via PM's and here I'm now also considering SPF and FFR. Since the BDR post was in a BDR community thread I assumed folks that love/own FFR's or SPF's wouldn't necessarily see that post. I want to get the opinions of owners of SPF and FFR folks also.

But with that siad, I've seen some sweet looking cobras with coyote engines that are fancier than normal and many show cars with coyote. I didn't say I want to win shows, I just want it to have more wow factor than the norm as far as looks.

Thanks Jim Vander Wall - sounds similar to me in that I want both a track car that is streetable but I'm more 90% steet use with some track days. Since I've Autocrossed in a 911 back in the 90's I've wanted to get back into that more and doing track days as well. But I don't see me getting into full "wheel to wheel racing" on track so I'll sacrifice some options that will make it not streetable still. I'd definetly be more interested in a single full width chrome roll bar if I can get it and it still fits under the tops. I've added LED headlights with Halo to my V1 cobra and love em. I'll definetly have modern lights in both the front/rear.

I'm 6' so I figure length isn't a major issue for either company. The BDR seemed to have a wider tunnel which caused the seat to angle over more but also had plenty of leg room. I didn't feel I needed the drop footbox in the BDR.

BDR standard seat was two narrow (and I'm not really that big so it surprised me) so I'd have to use their wide seat for comfort.

Olddog, yes, I agree that tires and chassis is more important for AutoX but I want to start doing more track days which is why I want the stout engine also.

Mark IV - yes, I'm not going for the accurate look but more of Resto-Mod/Modern look.

Three Peaks - the advantage I'm seeing with BDR and SPF is the rolling chassis but I suppose if I have a good compentent builder that's not a huge issue. FFR kit is cheaper than the rolling chassis but then I have to pay the shop to put it together. But with that said, any known recommended shops in the mid-atlantic areas that are FFR experts that could help me compare apples (FFR) to oranges (the other guys)?

NYGuy - LOL, cracked me up. Two of my best car buddies are corvette guys and there are always good jabs going back and forth. Nothing against corvettes but I just love the look of the cobra and community of Cobra owners. They fit my personality as compared to new vett guys :-) AND, the wife loves Cobras over new vetts for much the same reasons. But I'd take a gen 1 corvette anyday and may one day own both the cobra and a corvette. But for now it's all Cobra!!!

DanEC - thanks for watching my 6. Yep, just trying to get the 3rd one perfect (if there is such a thing).

I appreciate the dialog and help guys.

Thanks, Brian

[Three Peaks]

PM Sent

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by olddog

Experts on here have done some pretty fair tests and proven that a carb will make more power than EFI. I do not understand why, but I do not question their attempt to do a fair test.

Volumetric Efficiency increases as air velocity increases, as engine RPM increases; and for some mythical, magical reason, carbs allow air to flow through the intake manifold faster than EFI does at lower MAPs, and higher RPM's...

I've likened it to watering your plants with a spray bottle, versus a watering can. If the plants need a low to moderate amount of water, the spray bottle does a better job of efficiently (and economically) moistening the soil, and increasing the humidity in the immediate area of the plant; but when the plant needs a LOT of water, even a super-awesome computer just can't pump that spray bottle lever fast enough to deliver a volume of air/water mixture at a velocity necessary to really soak the soil... When high-speed delivery is the goal, old-school watering cans rule...

However- Who cares about peak HP? By and large, EFI allows better volumetric efficiency at lower and mid-level RPM's (where it counts on a true multi-purpose engine) and Olddog has already pointed out the benefits of EFI for track use (especially autocross)

Peak HP is for bench-racers, and carbs are for guys (like me) who enjoy fiddling with their tune all the time.

For all the "just get in it and drive" types, EFI is the most rational option.

Regarding the question of Backdraft versus SPF- My only opinion there is that Superformance bodies, while still not perfect representations of csx3000 cars, still look closer to the mark than BDR bodies do (if that's important)

But, BDR's fatter rear fenders serve a purpose- Their cars are designed to wear wider, modern Z-rated tires, and to go racing-

JMHO, but if racing and raw performance numbers is more important than styling/originality, then BDR makes for a better foundation to build a more modern racecar. (unless you are considering Vintage racing classes, where originality in chassis and suspension design are important considerations, which would swing things back toward SPF...)

Regarding BDR versus Factory Five- for a race/performance oriented car, a FF is a great option to consider- Like them or hate them- FF's chassis design is the most rigid of the bunch.

The cost of a FF kit, combined with the cost of putting it together is right in line with the cost of a delivered BDR roller (every car has to be put together by SOMEONE, so you can't really escape the assembly cost)

Regarding the "show car" appearance... Pfft- You can't win that game, so why even play?

For every guy out there that hates your car because "a Cobra shouldn't have headrests, or an EFI Coyote in it" There will be another guy who looks at it and appreciates the workmanship that went into making it go together...

Kind of like the local guy out here in Az that put the mega-huge aluminum offshore V12 in his Kirkham. Purists hate it, practical hot rodders don't understand the cost-factor of all that effort, performance nuts don't understand what good a car is when it can only be driven at half-throttle... and in spite of all that- It's still one MEGA-cool machine.

Do your car, your way, work with your builder, and ignore the haters. That's the best advice anyone on here is going to give you.... The rest will all just be blathering and bloviating. (like I just did for half a page, hahaha )

[Three Peaks]

Some of the best blathering and bloviating on this thread for sure....

Bob

[EM65Cobra]

Moore_RB, I do so like how you blather and bloviate. :-)