checking solid lifter adjustment

[Kit Coyle]

I have solid roller lifters in my BOSS 302 engine. I often just use a mechanics
stethoscope to check the valves for consistent sounds one to the other. For the
last few years they all sound the same with no excessive noise or clatter. Do
you think this is effective or am I just being lazy in not removing the valve
covers and going through the proper process? The cam has lots of duration but
not high lift and the valve spring pressure is relatively low. Thank you.

[Anthony]

I would think the best way is to check with a feeler gauge with the engine hot.

[Argess]

I doubt the sound would change much unless the lash becomes extremely different.

I'd check it after 1000 miles, and if it's still OK, or needs a very minor adjustment, then wait 2000 miles before checking it again.

With your low valve spring pressure, you'll probably find you can go quite a lot longer between checking.

You might want to look into rubber valve cover gaskets that you can re-use if you check them often enough.

I know my FE seems to idle easier and sound a little snottier after I adjust the valves, but other than that, I don't notice any difference.

[CJ428CJ]

I sometimes wonder why solid lifter lash needs to be checked periodically. It certainly needs to be set up correctly initially but what would cause it to change warranting the need to recheck it? Cam and lifter wear should be negligible. I can't imagine valves seat deeper into the valve seats so unless someone is worried about the adjusters loosening, why the need? I have an FE and I have checked mine multiple times and I've never noticed anything being off by any appreciable amount. Maybe someone can help educate me.

Chris

[Argess]

Valve tip wear, but really just a little bit from everywhere that adds up. 10,000 miles plus could easily be achievable, but the more you modify your valve train, the faster it will wear.

Besides, we're not really talking about having to adjust it, but rather how often to check it. These can become one and the same as you get to know your engine through more frequent checks early on.

[Gaz64]

Cam lobe, base of lifter, lifter pushrod cup seat, pushrod (both ends), rocker arm (pivot and tips), top of valve stem, valve seats.

There are many little hammers bashing away in any engine with a solid valvetrain.

All those tiny clearances, are the reason for wear, and the need for periodic adjustment.

Hydraulic camshafts are ground differently to solid cams.

Solid cams have gentle quietening opening and closing ramps.

Ever heard how noisy a hydraulic cam is when converted to solid lifters?

[FredG]

The solid lifters on my old C1 vette 283 had to be adjusted with the car running using a feeler gauge. I had a set of valve covers with the top cut out to keep the oil under control. I loved the sound of those solids.

Fred

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by FredG

The solid lifters on my old C1 vette 283 had to be adjusted with the car running using a feeler gauge. I had a set of valve covers with the top cut out to keep the oil under control. I loved the sound of those solids.

Fred

Now Fred, please explain how a feeler gauge can be used on a solid cam valve train while the engine is running. In my 40+ years, I have yet to hear of that. Hydraulic cams can certainly be adjusted with the engine running. I have used a feeler gauge many times on a running hydraulic engine to identify a faulty lifter.
Gary

[FredG]

Gary

We are talking almost 60 years ago. The engine in my vette was a 1961 283 with 270 HP that had 2- 4 barrels. It came with the famous Duntov cam. It wasn't difficult to do. We did a cold setting to get it close then slid the feeler gauge between the rocker/valve tip and socket to adjust with the engine warmed and running . Having the cut valve cover was the key to keep the oil under control. It was the way I was taught to do it by the old time mechanic I worked for and learned from back in the mid 60's. I learned so may things from that guy with regards to cars before computers took over. I loved the sound of that engine. It sounded like a tight sewing machine. By the way, I saw the commenting on changing the magnetic pickup on the Holley forum. Wish I knew that earlier or MSD provided that info with the new pickup. It would have saved a lot of time. Apparently, new ones are much more accessible.


Fred

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Now Fred, please explain how a feeler gauge can be used on a solid cam valve train while the engine is running. In my 40+ years, I have yet to hear of that. Hydraulic cams can certainly be adjusted with the engine running. I have used a feeler gauge many times on a running hydraulic engine to identify a faulty lifter.
Gary

[Gaz64]

I hope others will chime in here.

I still fail to understand how you set a mechanical camshaft valve lash with the engine RUNNING.

It is physically impossible.

The only way you could do this is by sound only, and certainly a feeler gauge could not be in the valvestem/rocker with the engine RUNNING.

https://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/...cam_adjust.pdf

[patrickt]

I have always loved solid lifter engines, and I've been setting valves for almost 50 years. I have never set them hot with the engine running. When I was working at service stations in high school and college, there was always some old flea bag mechanic, who was probably out on parole, who would say "in my day, we always set 'em hot with the engine runnin'." But I never saw anyone set them with the engine running, just say they used to do it that way.

Now, here is one lesson that I have learned with my FE engine regarding solid lifters. I have listened to and studied my iron block/aluminum headed mill for almost 15 years now and the fact that it has a solid, flat tappet cam and the clatter that it makes, or doesn't make, depending on the time and temperature after start up. I gap my valves at .018" COLD and I have aluminum roller rockers. The cam maker calls for a lash of .025" HOT. The classic answer to the difference between cold and hot lash on an iron block/aluminum headed engine is .007", give or take. When I first start my engine up COLD, there is virtually no valve clatter at all. When I then take her out and she begins to warm up, as measured by the coolant temperature, the valve clatter will be at its loudest and sharpest when the coolant becomes hot but the oil is not. That is when the aluminum heads and rockers have now had a chance to heat up, and expand, but the iron block has not. As the oil temperature reaches the same temperature as the coolant, the valve clatter reduces down to a "normal" level of clatter. This is because the temperature of the iron, and the expansion of the block, has now had a chance to catch up with the temperature, and the expansion, of the heads. A few years ago we had a thread over on the FE forum about the difference between cold and hot lash on iron block/aluminum headed FEs with SFT cams. A couple of guys took it on themselves to go out to the garage, check their lash while cold, then they drove the car until the coolant showed it had warmed up, pulled back in the garage, checked their lash again, and proclaimed the difference to be .011" to .013" difference! That was quite a change from the standard answer. Of course they did not run their engines until the block was at the same temperature as the heads, just until the coolant got hot. When I run my engine, the lash starts out as .018" and the valve train is quiet as a mouse, the lash then grows to .030" or more for a short while (when the heads have expanded but the block has not), and the valve train has a really nice, pronounced clatter to it. Then the lash shrinks down to .024" or so and has a "normal" clatter to it. It actually took me quite a while to figure this out.

[FredG]

Patrick and Gaz. One thing I have learned in my 70 years on this earth is that no matter what I have seen, learned, thought I knew and experienced there is always more to see, learn, know and experience. I don't question someone when they tell me something anymore because experience has told me I could be wrong. Good advice to follow. Follow it. I have no reason to make the story up. I don't post here to feed my ego like some do. Maybe that fleabag mechanic really did know more than you but you were just too young and naive to know it.

Fred

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredG

Maybe that fleabag mechanic really did know more than you but you were just too young and naive to know it.

No, back then I knew pretty much everything there was to know about everything.

[patrickt]

Here's the second lesson I've learned with my FE with the SFT cam: The "gap two valves with 90 degree turns from TDC" method does not work when your cam has 324 degrees of duration seat to seat. The only method that works for me reliably is the EOIC method. When I tried the 90 degree method the results where off as I was not on the heel of the lobe. Now, it wasn't off a whole lot, but it was off. 50 years ago that probably would have been close enough.

[Argess]

Years ago I saw a TV show highlighting an old mechanic who had turned blind. They showed him working on his car.... can't remember what model, but something old with overhead rockers. Anyway, no question about it, he was setting the lash with the engine running.

I think I may have tried it on my 1952 John Deere Model M tractor, but couldn't get the knack of it. It was a long time ago.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Argess

Years ago I saw a TV show highlighting an old mechanic who had turned blind. They showed him working on his car.... can't remember what model, but something old with overhead rockers. Anyway, no question about it, he was setting the lash with the engine running.

I think I may have tried it on my 1952 John Deere Model M tractor, but couldn't get the knack of it. It was a long time ago.

Maybe you needed to close your eyes...

[CHANMADD]

I can honestly say that I have done that. But its easier without a feeler and just adjust them until the clatter stops.If you go to far and the valve does'nt close it will start to run ****ty.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Here's the second lesson I've learned with my FE with the SFT cam: The "gap two valves with 90 degree turns from TBC" method does not work when your cam has 324 degrees of duration seat to seat. The only method that works for me reliably is the EOIC method. When I tried the 90 degree method the results where off as I was not on the heel of the lobe. Now, it wasn't off a whole lot, but it was off. 50 years ago that probably would have been close enough.

EOIC is the best method. Exhaust Opening (about 50-90 BBDC), adjust intake valve. Inlet Closing (about 50-90 ABDC), adjust exhaust valve. When doing like this, the engine is generally from 90-110 BTDC or 90-110 ATDC.
But you only do one valve at a time according to the EOIC principle.

Still works with cams of 340 degrees, since the other 380 degrees or so, each valve is closed.

Now working as a mechanic for 40 years, if I come across a solid camshaft that can be adjusted with the engine running, then I will stand corrected.
Until then, I think Fred's engine had a hydraulic cam that was run at near zero lash (zero preload, not a typical 1/2 turn after zero lash). I have run my own hydraulic cams at "zero lash".

From the Corvette forum, for solid lifter camshafts. The 30-30 Duntov is no different to any other camshaft.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...djustment.html

[FredG]

Gary.
Give it a rest. Now you are going to tell me what lifters I had back in 68 when I disassembled the engine myself and know what was in it. Time to realize that maybe some people do/did things different than you do.

Fred

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredG

Gary.
Give it a rest. Now you are going to tell me what lifters I had back in 68 when I disassembled the engine myself and know what was in it. Time to realize that maybe some people do/did things different than you do.

Fred

Ehhhhh, I don't know... do you have any video showing you adjusting the lifters while the engine is running?