American vs. Cheap
 

As one of the many thousands (millions?) of workers whose "high tech" jobs are being sent overseas, I find myself giving a lot of thought to this off-shoring phenomenon. I have always preferred quality over quantity...but I will admit to buying a fair number of chinese tools, that I only intended to use only once.

1) It is my opinion that the vast majority of CEO's are not independent-thinkers. They would rather pay a consultant to advise them on what everyone-else is doing. Jack Welch is somewhat of an exception...but he seems to have exchanged any concept of morality for this ability (ask his ex-wife).
2) Capitalism, as presently expressed, is driven by VOLUME. The engine requires constant replacement, or expansion, of existing ownership (the stuff you've got).
3) Executives by-and-large think greed is good.
4) Workers, for the most part, confuse productivity with putting-in-time. I have seen MANY resumes that recount number of years service, without any mention of their contribution.
5) The overseas workers taking our jobs arrogantly tell us that we should be better-educated. But why go to get yet another degree, when not even physicians or attorneys are safe? This is not an exaggeration...Chinese neurologists can read an MRI much cheaper than an American.

The sadest fact of all is that America has a vast population of improverished who would be happy to learn a new skill.

So what does Shelby do? Build another car plant in South Africa. As if they need the work, or the money.

Amen Brother

What I want to know is why are so many American Car companies starting to build car plants overseas while the Foreign car companies are building plants here? Which is more
American a Crown Victoria built in Canada, a Dodge Pickup built in Mexico, a BMW built in South Carolinia, a Mercedes Benz built in Alabama or a Honda Built in Ohio.

MORE AMERICAN?
 

I HAVE THE ANSWER TO THAT REPLY !
HOW BOUT A WEST COAST COBRA BUILT IN GARY MIRABALS GARAGE IN ALBUQUERQUE NEW MEXICO!!!
NOW THATS AMERICAN!

As much as I hate to admit it,it is looking like my old friend H. Ross Perot was right about "That giant sucking sound". :(

I hate to say this, but the Unions may have had a lot to do with why so many jobs have left us. We would not be able to afford the cameras, TVs, videos, appliances, etc if they were made here, not to mention the incredibly detailed scale models we all own. Unless huge taxes are levied on imports and the buying public is forced to psy more for the same product, I don't see the huge sucking sound stopping. Don't forget after the War, Japan was making things cheap. Now all those jobs are in China. On the other hand, why is it that American pharmaceuticals are selling the same drugs in Canada and the rest of the world cheaper than here. There is a real controversy here.

Shin

Answer:
Union worker, HS grad or not = $30.00 per hour.
Non Union, 3rd world labor= $5.00 per hour.
You own the business... where to you take your labor?

The other big issue at work here is the simple differences in living standards. In countries like India and China they are very low, but as they become more weathy guess what they start to look like - America!

We have about 15 engineers in India and we vist there often. On the last visit (I wasn't there but our VP of Eng was) our guys took a tour of an outsorcing shop that was all setup for a whole floor of engineers but it was empty. When our VP asked how soon he thought they would fill up the floor, the CEO of this outsourcing firm told him that it *had* been full two weeks ago but the *whole* floor (a single large development team) had been hired away for more money by Accenture!

What's happening is that we (the US, UK, Japan and the other G7/8's) are going to suffer while we pull the rest of the poor but ready to be first world countries (India, China, some of the old USSR states, SA, etc.) up to something close to our standard of living. I think our standard of living in the US will suffer the most since we're the richest, but eventually we'll all reach a steady state where everyone starts to accelerate together.

I've thought about this *a lot* given our use of outsourcing, but there's simply no way around this unless our Gov. finds a way to change the rules. Capitalisim doesn't care where / what is making it the most efficient, it just goes there whether you like it or not.

To end this on a positive note, keep in mind that most of these companies are American companies. Most of the management of these companies remains American. And only in America could this sort of Capitalisim thrive. In all these other countries the culture couldn't survive this sort of all out Capitalisim. If you roll the clock forward some period of time, basically the whole world ends up working for us & we're managing them.

So, which would you rather end up as - the owner / operators of the world's great companies or the people that work for them? Something to think about & of course, just my .02!

Technology, like a freight train coming down a mountain, will run you over if you don't get on the train, or get out of the way.

If companies are to survive in the future, companies like SAI Shelby, they HAVE to figure out how to provide a product at a competitive cost, or die.

If they cannot adapt, overcome, figure it out, the "train" will run them over.

Walmart could be a problem for our economy down the road, but I still shop there.

Ernie

Walmart could be a problem? Are we sure about this?

Many Economists think the best thing IS sending off jobs off shore. If the money is better spent elsewhere for the same product, you just increased productivity.

From what I've read, Walmart has shown a measureable increase in the GDP due to it's lower prices.

A Walmart employee doesn't make a huge salary. But when they can buy their groceries at Walmart cheaper than they can from the grocery store down the street, their dollar has more value.

Yes we "lose" jobs when we send them offshore. Many we don't gain. 95% of this country was based on farming at one time. Most of those farming jobs are LONG gone. But we certainly aren't looking at a 90% unemployment are we? New jobs are created due to increased productivity.

Companies that do NOT outsource simply can't survive. Should government interfere to help companies? Look at the recent Steel fiasco. Bush put tafiffs on foreign steel to protect the US Steel industry. What we ended up with was high priced Steel making common goods more expensive. Decreasing productivity, decreasing the value of the Dollar.

It's an odd thing. And it can be a rather sensative issue. Personally I'm looking for an engineering job. There's nothing here. NOTHING. Very much due to local companies moving their engineering off shore. It's easy to lose your job, not so easy to find a new one. It takes a while for employees to move onto new careers. It's hard when a company lets a few people go, it's much harder when they close a plant.

There have been many industries in the US to have fallen, many jobs "lost". How many cotten pickers do we have here? Telephone Operators? Farmers?


It's a market economy.


And to more directly respond to the first post:

1) CEOs have agendas to meet. They can't operate in the red. Employees aren't their first concern. That being said, many of them are complete idiots. I'm sure many CEOs make incredibly poor decisions because they don't know what's going on in the "trenches"

3) Greed IS good. It's what keeps a roof over your head, food on the table. Maybe not so much your greed, but others. Check out countries that try to remove Greed from their society.

5) A lot of it isn't the skills. Yes, people are willing to learn new skills, but if it's cheaper to find someone with those skills somewhere else, most companies will use them. Companies are out to make a profit. This isn't Soviet Russia.


Who knows if I made any sense... I typed this rather quick.

-Steve in NJ-

Steve in NJ, thats a very positive attitude for an engineer out of work. Best of luck in finding another position or a new career path.

I don't subscribe to the "sky is falling" gloom and doom. But then, I've still got a job.

We buy lots of parts, some made right here in Texas, some in other parts of the USA, and yes, some in China. Once the competition goes overseas we have to do whatever we have to to stay competitive and stay in business. But not everything can be sourced in China. We require some very tight tolerances and precision parts. We've had hell trying to get those out of China. Mexico lost a lot of business to SE Asia, but the Mexicans have learned about quality (I'm not kidding), and quite a few businesses that went to China are now coming back to Mexico.

I don't have any answers, but I don't see the end of the world coming either.

Lighten up and go drive your cobra:3DSMILE:

WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY........................






...................and he is us ,

pogo.

Mexico *has* learned about quality. As has the US.

Does anyone want to go back to 80's US automobile quality? The Japanese kicking our asses has definately increased the quality of the US cars. (Heck, I'll definately say there's a few US cars built better than Japanese/German cars)

-steve in nj-

Satan,

I agree , but Japan and Germany are on a more or less even playing field with us......

KK

I invested in Walmart stock, so I jope to hell they do all right. The reason no one can match the Chinese in productivity. This is because each of them work cheap and long hours. Why? there's 10 behind him wanting to take his/her place. I agree that their precision quality is not that great, but this will only be a metter of time. The Chinese will be the next great emoire. We will have to work closely and peacefully with them. They may be our only significant allies against Muslim extremists.

When is an import not an import?
 

Aumoore
As has already been mentioned, American companies go to other countries chasing cheaper labor rates. Many cars list domestic content or where major components were manufactured. When my wife was trying to talk me into trading in my Mountaineer on a mini-van I noted the Mercury Villager had a Japanese engine, while the Mazda MPV had a Ford engine.:confused:


On the other hand, foreign companies build vehicles here to get around tariffs and import quotas! :mad: This has been allowed to go on for decades because of fear of trade barrier retaliation, if not in motor vehicles, in another product area.:( The profits from the domestically built foreign company vehicles don't stay here, and I don't know if they are counted in the balance of trade numbers.

My " American" Mercury Mountaineer was assembled in Canada, and had the Canadian Firestone Wilderness tires. I had to wait until round two for the tire recall.

Fast Farmer

this is a touchy thread for me too,,Thank Bill Clinton and Nafta,,and whom ever said it was right,,"That giant sucking sound"
the problem is when one mfg goes south,the rest eventually have to to compete,and the good old unions,,theve taken a good thing WAY too far and priced us out of the market.
That said,the BIGGEST problem is this,,Americans have no balls and NO pride,everyone has the right to choose what they buy and whom they pay,,or walk off,if the first 200 people who drove into the first self serve gas station had driven away,we would still get our oil checked and windsheilds cleaned,my guess is the cost would be the same,think about that,,now the robot check outs in grocery stores,,I refuse to use them,,thats another lost job.average people just dont care ,until it hits their wallet.
Next thing is freakin mexicans living illegally ,paying no tax,no car insurance,so they can work much cheaper than those who contribute,then they have babies,or knock up american girls,bingo,another monthly check,,how long can we burn the candle at both ends ?seriously I am no bigot,but think about the minority business,,ever wonder why they are ALL cash oriented ? resturants,quik shops,massage parlors,spas etc,,this is huge cash flow,,and largely untaxed,there smarter than us,,
now I am pissed off again,,haha ,Tk

Every time we buy that Cheap forien labor product a few more dollars leave the USA ......and it aint comin back......

soon after an american is going to loose his job.........and it aint comin back either,

You can say..."oh well it wasnt me" ....thats competition....

but we are ALL sellin something.........and they are not buying it "over there".........

the only people buying what we are selling is us.......the ones losing there ability to pay.....

I buy American whenever possible , they are the ones who are paying me.

KK

The UK suffers from much the same market conditions as the USA, indeed even our service call centre jobs are disappearing fast into the Indian subcontinent.

The only way to survive in the global economy is to make the "clever stuff" that the low age economies cant make yet, and when they can, move onto even cleverer stuff. Continual development is needed together with a concentration on quality.

With chinese wage rates at one fortieth of UK wage rates we cant compete with the simple assembly tasks, but our high tech products are in demand. One of my collagues is in China as I type this signing a deal to supply product from the UK, I am in Korea next week doing the same, we have just sold into India and Malaysia will be next.

We sell products that improve productivity and quality within heavy industry, principally steel. Theres only one market in the world that doesnt seem interested in improving its performance, and funnily enough thats the USA.

Its not the fault of the workers, its a philosophy that Made in USA is best, often its not, combined with resistance to change. My own experience of visiting many automotive assembly and steel plants is that the USA has a long way to catch up with the rest of the world. Furthermore as China, India, etc grasp the chance to improve and reinvest in their originally low labour cost industries, the USA will fall even further behind.

I remember being on one car assembly track in the US only about 2 years ago and the guy fitting the wheel was so eager to light a cigarette that he forgot to tighten the wheel nuts, the result was that 45 minutes later the line stopped as the wheel fell off the car as it was being driven off the track.

In Europe he would have never have had the opportunity to smoke on the track, (fire and damage hazard), and secondly there would have been an investigation with all hell to pay. In the US it was just a good laugh as the reason for the stoppage made its way back along the track. Glad of the opportunity to take an unscheduled break the wheel guy lit up another cigarette...........

Cheers,

Tony

Shin , Its not the unions . Its greed .
The non Union company charges $29 instead of $30 , they just pay the help less!
The overseas guy (child) will work for $5.oo a month . Most of us would be working
for a lot less if Unions did not bring a standered of living . It is hard to realize how
they have helped us all .

My experience with cost savings via offload vs process improvements is working for a company that pays lip service to leaning out processes, but offloads work to foreign lands like Russia, Mexico, Morocco, South Africa, Canada, China, Japan, Texas, and Australia in heartbeat to realize a quick, down and dirty, payday. Damn the consequences...massive overtime to cover rework caused by shoddy workmanship and long distance engineering changes is going to be some other manager's problem. The shining star that sells the employees, community, and shareholders down the river has moved on.

My employer also pays lip service to ethics and we have a new Mc-CEO.

Rich