Toploader pops out of third and fourth

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I've noticed that when I put the stick in third gear the rubber boot pulls back on it quite a bit.

I remember seeing a Cobra at a show once and noticed that he had a nice black leather shifter boot with just a ring at the top sewed into the leather, so the boot would just slide up and down the shaft and not cause any "pulling" by the boot, if that makes sense. I do remember him saying that he put it in for same problem mentioned above by DanEC. I think he got it here, but I may be wrong.

Shift boot store - RedlineGoods leather shift boots

[steve meltzer]

Thanx so much for all the input, guys. The "little white thing" is the alignment tool, showing that the shifter arms are indexed correctly, trans in neutral. First off, how do I set the limiting bolt, now that I've fooled around with it?. I'll check the the other things as well, and let you know. Great help! thanx again. steve

[MOTORHEAD]

Jac: yeah, that's the bolt I have. Hole depth is approx 1.15", so with the bullet at .456", it would use the short spring, the 296 28 you listed.
What bothers me is why did putting a little tension on the cut spring that was in the tranny cause the shifting to be so difficult ? The proper spring is going to be slightly longer !
Ted

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by MOTORHEAD

Jac: yeah, that's the bolt I have. Hole depth is approx 1.15", so with the bullet at .456", it would use the short spring, the 296 28 you listed.
What bothers me is why did putting a little tension on the cut spring that was in the tranny cause the shifting to be so difficult ? The proper spring is going to be slightly longer !
Ted

[b]Hi Ted, At a guess I think they have stuck a second detent ( bullet) in that hole, just measured a Top Loader case I have here & its ~ 1.500" deep ( 0.350" deeper than your measurement of 1.150", add the 0.060 of the flat of the shifter rail to that for 1.560" and we have a difference of 0.400". If this is so you will need a pin magnet approx. 0.250" dia to hopefully pull it out, or if you can determine its a 'detent/bullet' visually then all you should have to do is fit the new spring & bolt/washer be good to go.

****** Eureka***, just had a thought, went out to shop, fitted shifter rail & detent to that empty case & measured the depth*** 1.150"...so just as I guessed, they had fitted TWO detents... leave that one there ( put the spare in your 'things that annoyed you' cupboard), get the new spring and fit your bolt washer & you should be good to go.... treat the trans gently for a while and try to avoid those engine brake situations and hopefully all will be fine.

Afterthought... Wonder if the original builder has left 'that spare' detent out of another location in the trans---there are five in total---- only ways to tell is to 'feel' for slight resistance as you initiate each gear selection or strip the trans down, however I would still road test it with the 'new' spring prior to any teardown to ensure that the jump out of gear problem is fixed first.

[MOTORHEAD]

Jac: I hope that's what the problem is. I'll check that out tomorrow am.
Thanks,

Ted

[MOTORHEAD]

DING DING DING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mr Jac Mac, YOU DA MAN!!!
The mystery of the outta gear poppin' double-detent bullet toploader has been solved !!!
Indeed, someone had stuck in an extra bullet, and then cut the spring to compensate (ignoring the red flag that was hoisted by the spring hanging out of the hole)
I couldn't get the original one out, so just added a spring Slightly smaller, but slightly longer, and went out for a drive.
PERFECTION ! never shifted smoother and did not pop out of gear, even when I tried !!!
If you ever make it to Florida, dinner and drinks are on me.! If I ever make it to NZ, same deal.

Thanks a bunch,
Ted

[Jac Mac]

Good to hear...ENJOY...... oh and you were not meant to try........ sounds like you have a lot in common with one of my kiwi clients...... he considers the trailer time from shop to track the 'run in' period!!

I will hang out for you to visit NZ, beer's better......

[MOTORHEAD]

Dan; ASSOLUTELY!!!!!
And the coolest part was the person that did the detective work was on the other side of the PLANET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just happened to have a bare t/l case sitting around the he could take some measurements from, and as "they" say....."broke the case wide open" !!!!!

Thanks again to Mr Jac Mac !!!!
Ted

[steve meltzer]

My 4-speed toploader also pops of out gear as described by the OP, but now I can't even get it into 3rd or 4th. (Reverse and 1/2 are OK). The linkage is perfectly aligned/indexed. When I removed the bolt (see picture). The bolt takes a 9/16 wrench, but its diameter is 3/8, I think. At any rate, i removed this bolt, but there was no spring and now I'm not sure if I just need to adjust it, or, the spring is ??? Any thoughts here? Maybe the gearbox is really toast, but if I can fix the car without foolin' with a rebuilding of the toploader, that would be a good thing! The car only has about 2K miles on this Southern-built box. No hard miles, no track. thanx steve

[MOTORHEAD]

Steve: wrong bolt! The one for the 3/4 detent "bullit" and spring is on the drivers side of the trans case. don't remember if there's one for the 1st & 2nd gears.
If you can't get into 3rd or 4th, maybe the detent is jammed. Can you move the shift arms on the tranny with the linkage disconnected ?

[Jac Mac]

The bolt you removed is a travel limiting bolt that prevents the shifter from 'over reaching' on the gearbox internal elements which can cause damage to the internal shifter rails if left out for a long time and the shifter is used aggressively. Did you use the alignment pin when setting up the shifter rods?

Attached pic shows the detent cover bolt, this is the only detent that is outside box, all others are internal. From your description check this bolt is tight first, if that's OK remove and check the spring is correct length and or not damaged as per my earlier posts for motorhead. If everything is OK there and the shifter assy is operating correctly then the next option is the possibility that the small hex set screws that locate the shifter forks on the internal rails are not tight. Think you will find issue is shifter alignment though.
What is the 'white plastic' looking rod hanging down in your pic behind the 3/4 shifter lever. I also enlarged your pic of the shifter assy, It looks like you have the basic shifter rods quite likely with lots of bends like the pic above.... shift quality can be greatly improved by using straighter shifter rods and rod ends for accuracy... the setup you have at present 'looks' to have enough free play to allow misalignment to occur in the shifter assy which would cause problems moving across the neutral gate from 3-4 and 1-2 positions.... PS, the pic I used is NOT a good example.. too many bends

To adjust that rear stop bolt you had removed......Screw bolt with locknut loose on threads back in a couple of turns Put shifter in third gear, tighten bolt in until it just contacts the lever in shifter unit ( you will see the 3-4 shifter linkage start to move out of third gear ), back the bolt out again by one whole turn then tighten the lock nut. There should be a similar bolt on the front face of the shifter, apply the same procedure to it with the shifter in fourth gear.

[Jac Mac]

1.IIRC... If I Remember Correctly....B. Those are the shifter arms, the forks are inside and fit in grooves machined in the synchro hubs and the reverse gear idler.

[steve meltzer]

thanx for the gentle schooling. David Kee is about 3-4 hrs away, in San Antonio. If I had a trailer and the time, I could take him the car. It's on my mind, however thanx. s

[steve meltzer]

OK, finally got the tranny out...as every Kirkham owner knows, this is a PITA X 10! Bad 3rd gear and bad 3rd and 4th synchros. thanx again. steve

[Bernica]

Did you pull the trans tunnel? Then everything is right there. Sorry for your troubles. David will fix you up...

[steve meltzer]

yep. no other way. s