to weber or not to weber...that is the question

[scode]

hey all, new to this forum but it seems very good. my question is this...
i am building a small block 302 and am thinking of putting webers on it. to be honest i do not know a lot about webers, i have had a few 911's w/them. i am building a streetable engine. i have seen the 44idf's and the 48 ida's and heard the 44's are more streetable and less hassle. is that true? what is the reccomended linkage and why? and what fuel system requirements (pump,filters etc) should i run? as far as manifolds, cobra style or the version with thermostat housing. again this motor will be for street and open track.
are webers the way to go? i love the look that is for sure.
and last question, where is best place with best prices to get them? anyone out there selling some?
thanks
-hawk

[bobcowan]

Webers look great on almost any car. When you see them on a Cobra, they make you drool.

BUT... if you don't know how to tune them, it can be a nightmare. It's expensive, too. You need 8 set of jets, 8 choke tube, 8 emuslion tubes..... You get the idea.

OTOH, there are a few really good 8 stack EFI systems available for about the same money. Much easier and a whole lot cheaper to tune. Self adjusting for for temperature and altitude. Closed loop operation. Work well with radical cams. Look spectacular.

Newer computers like Redline and BigStuff3 are self tuning. No need for dyno time.

This is my Momar EFI system.

[dlampe]

Actually you can get the Webers for $2999 and most fuel injection is over $7000. I love the Webers. They are not that hard to tune. It just takes patience. Once you have them set, you don't need to mess with them. Don't take advice about Webers from people who have never had them. That is the only way to separate the fact from the fiction.

[ENTDOC]

actually IDF's can be had for much less than that. Filtration is the biggest issue with webers, the tuning part is the most fun I had with my cobra.

[Jac Mac]

Just think of it as the two 'P's

Pretty= Webers.
Performance = Injection or 4bbl's

[ENTDOC]

I really have to disagree on that Jac, at least as it compares to 4bbl. My 427so became a different car after I got the webers tuned. Compared to my 750 Demon and edelbrock Victor manifold the car was remarkably quicker with significantly better throttle response. I do realize top end might suffer but I could not tell in my day to day driving. I would change that to

-more work
-more money
-more fun

[Kzof]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

actually IDF's can be had for much less than that. Filtration is the biggest issue with webers, the tuning part is the most fun I had with my cobra.

Very good attitude.

[bobcowan]

>> Actually you can get the Webers for $2999 and most fuel injection is over $7000. <<

Tru, and not true. A basic weber set up runs about $3K. But a basic EFI stack system runs about $4400. www.verycoolparts.com More expensive? Yes, it is. Is it worth it? Yeah, to me it is.

You can also incorporate ignition control with a crank trigger. Or even a distributerless system for a bit more money. All depends on what you're after. Imagine running your hot rod with sequential EFI and distibuterless power pack ignition. That's high tech.

The computer also includes features that a lot of drivers want: Data logging, rev limiters, rpm switches for things like shift lights and NoS control, fan control, etc. You get a lot of performance for $4400.
On a dyno, EFI can be completely tuned in about an hour or two. All without ever leaving the seat of the car. Nothing to change, no parts to buy, no fuel to spill. Make a run, tap a few keys, make a run. Repeat as needed. Pretty simple. You save big bux on tuning. With the newer wide band systems, if you change something like exhaust, air cleaners, camshaft, you don't need to retune. It will do it on it's own.

Closed loop EFI constantly monitors the system and adjusts as needed. I live at 6,400' ASL, and that's what my car is tuned for. I traveled to Ohio this year, from CO. That's a huge change in altitude. But it wasn't a problem, the computer made the adjustments. Same thing when we raced in Hastings a few months ago. Car ran better without any tuning. I often drive over mountain passes >11,00' ASL. No problem, car runs fine. Imagine getting a perfect 14.7:1 ratio on a steady cruise no matter what the conditions are. But then getting a power mad 12.5:1 under full throttle. Every time, no matter what.

I love the look of webers. I think nothing looks better under the hood of a Cobra. Nothing has the Wow facter like webers do. But I want to drive my car in a variety of situations. I don't know how to tune webers, and don't know anyone around here that does. For me, EFI is the logical choice. An 8 stack system is a nice comprimise.

[thorconstr]

You're not going to find a stack price like this too often! TWM Group purchase!
www.thormotorsports1.com

[zimmy]

I can post how the Webers are jetted if needed.

Yes - please.

[Great Asp]

Scode, what part of the country are you located in?

I found in St. Louis that the Barometric pressure was the problem keeping the webers running. In the morning they ran great, but in the afternoon not as well. Not hard to tune though.

If you are going to use webers, do not go big on the cam as stated above. I thought Comp cams has grinds for weber set-ups which will help if available.

E

[mtpockets]

Here are the jets used. Again, this is one of Keith Crafts "Econo" 408w crate motors. I asked him to make a recommendation of whether is "Standard" or "Econo" would work better with the Webers. He recommended the Econo with a different cam. I bought the complete Weber set up from a fellow Hot Rodder here in the Houston area. He had a 408w built and had ordered the carbs to fit that motor. Weber setup had never been used.

Jets:
37mm chokes, 160 mains, 200 air correctors, 60 idles, 120 holders, 55 by passes, and F7 emulsion tubes.

Linkage:
The linkage is custom and was designed by Chuck Kendall (AKA Traindriver) on CC. I installed the throttle cable and hooked up all the linkage tonight. Very nice setup. Installed two springs on the linkage (pass tech inspection) and a spring return on the pedal (just because).

Cam:
Off the KC build sheet: Item#: 35-426-8 Comp Cam. Cam specs: 555/576 288/294 236/242 @ /.050

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by mtpockets

Here are the jets used. Again, this is one of Keith Crafts "Econo" 408w crate motors.
Jets:
37mm chokes, 160 mains, 200 air correctors, 60 idles, 120 holders, 55 by passes, and F7 emulsion tubes.

Cam:
Off the KC build sheet: Item#: 35-426-8 Comp Cam.
Cam specs: 555/576 288/294 236/242 @ /.050

These cam specs got me curious.

My 392" stroke RDI w/Comp Cam dual-pattern hydraulic roller specs at
.540/.540 lift, 240/246 dur @.050, 110 lobe centers. Compression is 9.7:1 with Victor Jr. heads.

I was always under the impression that I had too much cam for Webers. Mine has 4 degrees more duration (i.e. more overlap, which Webers don't like a lot of), but measurably less lift (.015/.036).

Any thoughts on this from the gurus? I'm not in the market for a different induction set-up...just trying to get educated at the moment.

Thanks,

-Dean

[Gatorac]

That looks pretty straigh forward. Thanks for posting the pics.

[mtpockets]

The new arrival in the Houston Cobra Club is up and running. Now, I need to tune the carbs a bit more. Today it spit and popped a bit at startup idle, when it warmed up it stopped. Then on the road it stumbled a bit at 3500, give it just a bit more throttle and it takes off. Still taking it real easy, only 65 miles on it today. The brakes are working well with the vacuum pump. I mounted it lower driver side frame to the left of the radiator. Clean and out of sight.

[JCoop]

Most excellent!
Bravo!

[ENTDOC]

Pierce manifolds sells the needed post that attaches to the manifold to mount the bellcrank to for 12 dollars, looks stock and takes 10 minutes to put on

['65 Cobra]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

Pierce manifolds sells the needed post that attaches to the manifold to mount the bellcrank to for 12 dollars, looks stock and takes 10 minutes to put on

Do you have the part #?

[madmaxx]

mtpockets,

Your engine looks incredible. I am glad to see you have it on the road. Be safe!!

[mtpockets]

Ok, I'm going to try a few more changes and then I'll find a pro in the Houston area. Spitting and popping still. Turned the idle mixture screw out 3/4 turn and changed from 60 idle jets to 70. Cleaned it up nicely. Put the stack screen on and spit and popped. Took the screens off and ran better. Tonight i got in and it spit and backfired all night. DAMN, I didnt do anything. Me and a buddy have been reading the tech stuff and will try a few more things this weekend.

If anyone has experienced similar situation let me know what to try next. The stack screens will restrict the air flow. What needs to be changed to overcome that? I don't want to run without any air filtration, just doesn't sound right. Am I nuts??? I haven't lost interest in the Webers, trust me, when you get into the throttle, it slams you back in the seat and flies. Big difference from my 306 (375 hp) to the 408 (511 hp).

Well, more test and tune this weekend and probably the 500 mile checkup and oil change. I'll keep everyone posted.