427 Side-oiler - approx. horsepower?

[fonti]

I am looking at a Cobra with a 427 Side-oiler. Has the following parts:
ford 427 steel crank, all ford parts, ford solid lifter cam, ford pistons, Le Mans rods, Le mans dist, Le Mans carburator, ford side
winder aluminum intake, with edelbrock aluminum heads , 10.25 compression

About how many Horses are we talking here? Thank you! Peter

[Gunner]

That would basically be an original engine build. The originals had right about 420-425HP and 480 foot-pounds. The Edelbrocks are slightly improved versions of the Ford mid-risers. The intake might be a little more efficient. If the cam is the original grind, a careful tune might get around 430HP and 480-500 torque.

A more aggressive cam would bring in more added horses than anything else. A modern distributor would add a little power and a lot of reliability.

[undy]

500 hp +/-

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by undy

500 hp +/-

I don't think so. Not at stock displacement and with original cam, heads (more or less) and only a slightly improved intake.

[sparks]

Dont forget that back in the 60's engines were usually under rated.

[undy]

Originally Posted by fonti

I am looking at a Cobra with a 427 Side-oiler. Has the following parts:
ford 427 steel crank, all ford parts, ford solid lifter cam, ford pistons, Le Mans rods, Le mans dist, Le Mans carburator, ford side
winder aluminum intake, with edelbrock aluminum heads , 10.25 compression

About how many Horses are we talking here? Thank you! Peter

Originally Posted by Gunner

I don't think so. Not at stock displacement and with original cam, heads (more or less) and only a slightly improved intake.

Gunner, you changed the OP's wording from "Ford solid lifter cam" and substituted your own assumption, "original cam". They're not necessarily one and the same. Let's see, if I recall ... Ford had several "hot" solid lifter FE cams that was available across the parts counter of your local Ford dealerships. In fact, I think they were Shelby sourced cams that were sold by Ford with Ford part numbers. One of those cams could qualify as the OP's "Ford solid lifter cam". Depending on the profile it would render more than stock, hence the 500 +/-.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by undy

Gunner, you changed the OP's wording from "Ford solid lifter cam" and substituted your own assumption, "original cam". They're not necessarily one and the same. Let's see, if I recall ... Ford had several "hot" solid lifter FE cams that was available across the parts counter of your local Ford dealerships. In fact, I think they were Shelby sourced cams that were sold by Ford with Ford part numbers. One of those cams could qualify as the OP's "Ford solid lifter cam". Depending on the profile it would render more than stock, hence the 500 +/-.

Hopefully it doesn't have anything more potent than the over-the-counter "K" cam (which is what I have). That's about as far as you want to go with a Ford solid lifter cam and still enjoy it on the street. The next step up to that cam was the "B" cam, which kept the same lobes, but brought the separation angle in closer together. He won't like that. The last step up from that was the "D" cam. He doesn't have it; nor would he want it. I really, really like my old school "K" cam, but cams have come a long way in 40 years. A word of caution though when you're surfing the 'net on FE cams. There is more wrong information on the specs than there is right. There are typos that get replicated down the line. Durations are confused from seat-to-seat to other lifts, etc. Some specs include the lash, others forget it. Some cam specs are based on 1.73, others on 1.76, and so on. But the real truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter if he has 485 horsepower or 425 horsepower -- he won't be able to tell the difference excpept on a dyno.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Hopefully it doesn't have anything more potent than the over-the-counter "K" cam (which is what I have). That's about as far as you want to go with a Ford solid lifter cam and still enjoy it on the street. The next step up to that cam was the "B" cam, which kept the same lobes, but brought the separation angle in closer together. He won't like that.

I have a "B" cam, .526 lift and I find it fine to drive on the street, although I wouldn't want to drive it all day long in traffic (but who would do that anyway).

[brettco]

Don't forget todays horse power numbers being thrown around are usually made up by the owner.

[Gunner]

Dont forget that back in the 60's engines were usually under rated.

Possibly. But those numbers come from Shelby, not from Ford's marketing department. The original engines are what we'd now consider a fairly mild build except that they're capable of higher revs with the solid lifters. I don't think an original displacement, original cam, original head, single-4BBL 427 can much exceed 440-450HP at best. 420-430 is probably in the very close ballpark.

There is something to be said for the completely original build in these cars. It's certainly not underpowered...

Don't forget todays horse power numbers being thrown around are usually made up by the owner.

*rimshot*

[Anthony]

I would agree with undy, + - 500 hp. depends if the heads were ported.

I built a "replica" 427 comp car engine, except for cam.

Had original displacement, heads, intake, carb, and I probably got about 560HP, dyno'd at 460 hp at the wheels.

[Gunner]

I can't see cam alone adding ca. 130 horsepower. Cams only make the most of the other parts, and Shelby was already making an awful lot from those bits. The only engines I've seen with ~550HP have significant additions beginning with substantial improvements in displacement and breathing on top of an optimized cam. The original cam is only mild by present-day standards, not a lot of room for improvements. (Certainly not the kind of improvement that would be seen over an era street cam.)

I'm not saying you aren't being truthful, but I'd have to see documentation before accepting such a claim. It's just too easy to overstate results *and* the reasons for increases. A dyno sheet? Fine. But all too often, the claimant is forgetting about porting, port-matching, oversized valves, roller rockers, a little stroking...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Gunner

I can't see cam alone adding ca. 130 horsepower. Cams only make the most of the other parts, and Shelby was already making an awful lot from those bits. The only engines I've seen with ~550HP have significant additions beginning with substantial improvements in displacement and breathing on top of an optimized cam.

I built a period correct 427 comp emgine. Bored 0.017", stock stroke, 429 ci (stock displacement was actually 426). Original style (Dove) hi-riser heads, mildly ported, original (NOS) intake, original holley 780 vac-sec carb, however a reduced CR of 10.5 to 1. I installed a solid roller cam though, .670 lift.

Never dynoed the engine itself, only a chassis dyno, got 454 hp and still climbing, and max torque 488 at the wheels. A Roush 427R, on the same chassis dyno, put out 415 hp ( and still climbing) and 435 torque ( advertised at 550 hp, 535 TQ at flywheel).

Here's a picture of the engine.




Here's my chassis dyno.




Here's the best (tuned but not altered) Roush 427R chassis dyno.

[vector1]

i'd guess mid to high 400's on the tq, hp should be easily low 500 to mid 500.

anymore information and i can run engine analyzer pro simulation and get you pretty close.

[Gunner]

I don't mean to be a PITA but I am really having trouble believing claims of 500HP for an essentially stock SO. My rule of thumb, based on decades of devouring car stats and claims and some practical experience, is that 60s tech is good for 1 to 1.1 HP per cubic inch, with power in a reasonable band and some street driveability. I can't think of any exceptions, even allowing for manufacturer under-rating.

If anyone has a documented original-build 427SO with more than about 430HP, or an otherwise original-build SO with a modern cam profile making more than about 465HP, I'd love to see verifiable results. I maintain that more power is not possible without post-era modifications, displacement increase, modified heads, etc.

[patrickt]

Most of us have the different dyno software programs. If you keep the displacement at 425 cubes, the compression ratio at 10.25 to 1, and use "large tube headers through mufflers," it's almost impossible to tweak the heads, induction, and still use one of the vintage Ford cams (even the big ones) to get everything up to 500+ horsepower. Don't take my word for it; try it yourself.

[car4jim]

There was a show on Speed channel where they dyno'ed all the big blocks from the 60's. They tested a 427 FE that looked relatively stock. It seems to recall around 500 HP. Anyone see the show that can confirm?

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by car4jim

...a 427 FE that looked relatively stock.

I have a 400HP 289 that looks completely stock. I purposely built it that way, along with the '68 Mustang that looks completely stock until you start peeking deep into the corners.

My point here is that anecdotal evidence isn't, and "pretty close to stock" isn't, either. I've no doubt there are scads of 427s around that would dyno at 500HP... but not if they're 100% era-original. Most claims like the one you're referencing end with, "Oh yeah, we ported the heads and tooled them out for 2.14 valves" or "Oh yeah, we used a steel crank with a little more throw" or other "Oh yeahs" that negate "original."

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to be proven incorrect here. Name any production engine from the 1960s with more than 1.1 HP per cube *in original, unmodified form* - blueprinted is fine, but not modified. I can't think of a one.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by car4jim

There was a show on Speed channel where they dyno'ed all the big blocks from the 60's. They tested a 427 FE that looked relatively stock. It seems to recall around 500 HP. Anyone see the show that can confirm?

Yes, I saw it and there was a lot of discussion on it afterwards (not so much on the Club Cobra). It was the general consensus that most, if not all, of the engines were "ringers" and were not built truly stock. Especially the hemi.

[FFR428]

Originally Posted by car4jim

There was a show on Speed channel where they dyno'ed all the big blocks from the 60's. They tested a 427 FE that looked relatively stock. It seems to recall around 500 HP. Anyone see the show that can confirm?

Just to add that engine in the shoot out had tunnelport heads and intake which were over the counter parts only. So it can't really be called stock as no production 427 cars came with tunnelport heads/intake from the factory. The Hemi that topped the field as we all know was a ringer.