Cammer parts.

[750hp]

With Barry R's input and the concept of Kirkham billet cammer heads, this thread gets better and better. I hope it all leads to a satisfactory outcome.

[RodKnock]

And finally, there is/was never any doubt in my mind that Kirkham Motorsport is AWESOME!

Yes, I am a customer for this reason.

[damage]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

Not sure what you are stating as being bogus.

I asked some questions and they are yet to be answered.

As far as your comment about the engine is concerned your assumption is incorrect, I didn't ask about the engine other then how much.

Should I really need to ask if the engine builder who is being backed by some people on here as one of Americas best if he uses substandard parts?

[Barry_R]

I can comment on some things. Since I was not there, and was not involved in any way I am only equal to the rest of us - I am a spectator with no skin in the game.

The valve contact - I can see why you would get the impression that the valves rotate from viewing those parts. Its more a matter of the where/when/how they contacted the piston though. Once a valve gets hit the first time it is no longer flat and every subsequent contact can move it, spin it, fold it and mutilate it. There is simply no functional design element that causes a valve to rotate in operation beyond the nominal "scrub" from the spring.

As to the Coon heads I can only repeat my personal experience. My experience with the heads has been acceptable, my experience with the man behind them is challenging. I know that Jay has had a significant personality and legal conflict with Coon and that may color the tone of his discussions.

As for the component selection - I can only restate that we do not have enough repetitive experience to say "those parts always work, but those always break" on Cammer motors. We all use a small selection of parts from a very limited line of suppliers and while we are developing, the pace is slow in comparison to high volume builds.

The business situation and relationship between the various parties and how they handle it is none of my damned business.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

I wasn't asking him to comment on how KC operates. I was asking for his opinion on how he handles building one of these engines. He just gave us a detailed briefing describing the issues. I am curious as to how they handle a sale. It is reasonably obvious by now at least on the engine being discussed how KC handles it. If engines are being sold "without warranty", then paying $60k for a 40 mile trip was an expensive endeavor. I would hope that "let the buyer beware" isn't the standard practice.

And BTW..I do not need to "conjure" up anything. The proof is in the pudding. If you choose to ignore the obvious, then you seem to be the one with issues.

[jhv48]

Maybe I missed something here but I can understand why KC is getting a little bent.

If this happened to me, I would be mad as hell too. However, after communicating with the builder, I would simply pull the engine and ship it back to KC and let him honor his warranty (as he has stated he would do). Obviously Damage has the financial resources to do just that.

If I bought a Ford crate engine and it imploded during the warranty period, they would probably ask me to crate it up and send it back to them for analysis and repair.

If you send it back to KC and he fixes it, you will get a new engine with a new warranty on it. If he just sends you the parts and you or someone else rebuilds it and then it grenades again, who's going to honor the warranty. It won't be KC.

I feel for both parties. No winner here. Is there a reason Damage doesn't want to send the engine back? Did I miss something? Won't be the first time.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

As to the Coon heads I can only repeat my personal experience. My experience with the heads has been acceptable, my experience with the man behind them is challenging. I know that Jay has had a significant personality and legal conflict with Coon and that may color the tone of his discussions.

I agree. I would find it difficult to be impartial if I had to file a lawsuit and win a court judgement in order to get the defendant to honor their contract to deliver quality parts in a timely manner.

The main point that I'm trying to make is that a certain unknown % of Cammer heads had porosity issues dating back years. And Damage had an engine built in late 2014 with Coon Cammer heads that had porosity issues.

I'm not a metallurgist, so here's my question. If Damage's engine builder took delivery of Cammer heads from Mr. Coon and then subsequently the engine builder built the heads for a Damage's Cammer engine, is there somewhere in that entire process where porosity is checked?

I do realize that the Cammer chain drive broke and that the engine builder felt "less than satisfied" using it in his engine, but that's what was available at the time. The counter to that position is that if you feel uncomfortable sending something out the door, then you shouldn't send it out the door.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by jhv48

I feel for both parties. No winner here. Is there a reason Damage doesn't want to send the engine back? Did I miss something? Won't be the first time.

Damage mentioned earlier that the cost to ship his Cammer engine from Australia back to the US was cost prohibitive. Also, he felt more comfortable rebuilding the engine this time around. He just wanted the parts to fix it himself.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Damage mentioned earlier that the cost to ship his Cammer engine from Australia back to the US was cost prohibitive. Also, he felt more comfortable rebuilding the engine this time around. He just wanted the parts to fix it himself.

So, it's cost prohibitive to ship a complete engine to the States, but cost and time efficient to try and amass all the parts and pay for all the labor necessary to rebuild the engine? And you expect KC to send you all the parts you say you need to complete the job? I don't know any engine builder that would go for that deal. I've never met KC, but he has offered to fix the engine. Just send it to him. I can't think of a single engine company that would send out parts to fix a warranty issue unless an authorized agent did the teardown and was going to install the parts.

It seems to me that it would be far cheaper to bite the little bullet (pay for shipping the engine back to the states and let KC fix it and ship it back) than to
try and gather all the parts together and do it yourself. You can be damn sure he's going to upgrade the heads to Pond heads and install the best chain he can find. Knowing his reputation, he won't reuse any part (pistons, valves, etc.) that has any sign of damage or wear and tear. And then, you get another warranty.

Build it yourself and you eliminate KC from the equation (making him extremely happy) and quite possibly you could lose your $60,000 engine in another 40 miles and have no recourse whatsoever.

**** happens. Luckily you (Damage) have substantial resources to remedy the situation. Return the engine and let KC fix it.

[Buzz]

It's unquestionable that one needs to be sympathetic to Damage's situation - dream build, big bucks for the ultimate engine, etc. In fairness, however, consider the scenario from Keith Craft's point of view: He wants the engine back so he can tear it down and conduct his own inspection to determine exactly what happened and what needs to be done to repair it.

As things stand, he is forced to accept the opinions of others dabbling in his field of established expertise who openly imply that his work was suspect, and concede to ship the requested parts on their say-so. That has to be difficult and self-incriminating to accept.

Keith has years of builds under his belt to give him the confidence that no one is better qualified than himself to conduct the forensics and fixes but Damage, understandably based on this experience probably doesn't agree; and on top of it all there's the issue of justifying the shipping costs. Perhaps the solution lies in some sort of compromise in sharing the cost of shipping, or just sending the heads - I don't know. What's painfully obvious is that it's a bad situation for all involved and I for one feel for both sides.

[Dimis]

Ummm. I think you blokes HAVE missed something.
Or at least are reading things quite differently to me.

Originally Posted by damage

This is the email from my engineer here in Australia.

"Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2015 2:38 PM
To: David Trask
Subject: HEADS

Hello David,

Attached are photos of the heads with crack test die on them.
You can see on the welded exhaust port head that 3 of the exhaust ports have cracks(one with 2 cracks).
We pushed a scribe through on of the exhaust port walls(at the most 1mm thick).
On the back of the heads in near the rocker gear you can see that there are cracks coming from where the plugs are.
You can see, if you look carefully that one of the plug areas has been welded and polished off and still looks suspect(so they are aware of the problems).
The person who supplied the heads SHOULD 100% supply you with a new set of heads to replace this pair.(FREE OF CHARGE)
Not being rude to you but these heads are **** and have been patched up and unloaded onto you.
The people who did them would be fully aware of how bad they are!
They have been ported too much to suit the casting and have ended up thin.(being thin and having really bad porosity is not good either for down the track).
They need to have some heads ported .040” -.060” per side undersize or get better casting thickness.
Do you want to have a conversation with them before we continue?
The next step for us with the heads is to pressure test them to see if they are going to leak anywhere else apart from the cracks.(eg porosity holes)


Phil "


I have removed his company details deliberately as there is no need to involve him in this dispute.

This is my email to Keith Craft where I politely gave them a piece of my mind.

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:00 AM, David Trask <david@trask> wrote:

"Lance,

Once again no one has responded to me since our last email exchange on 19 February. I’m guessing this was deliberate so I didn’t show up at your workshop while I was in the US.

Please see the email below from the guy here in Australia who is helping me with all the crack testing and machine work that is required.

His email and the photos are self-explanatory, the heads that KC fitted to the engine are substandard (read this as **.

The work that KC did on the heads is poor quality and this has led to further failures. I’m not sure how it is that KC welding up heads on one side of the engine and not supplying port matched heads would be or could be considered a part suppliers problem. This is simply poor workmanship on behalf of KC.

I would like some answers immediately.

Just to remind you of how many times I have emailed you and your responses to date here is a complete outline of all communication on this to date.

DT EMAIL TO KC, My first email to you on this matter was 11/10/14
KC EMAIL TO DT, email You responded and advised me to let you know what parts I needed 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance I responded acknowledging your request. 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Photos of all damaged parts and parts list provided 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email received 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email receipt 11/26/14
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirmed receipt of email and forwarded to Keith for his comment 11/27/14. Including photos
DT TO KC, email to Lance acknowledging your email. 11/27/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/11/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/16/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/17/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/23/14
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL spoke to Lance asking for a response 1/7/15 request by yourself to forward photos direct to Keith
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming telephone conversation 1/7/15 and forwarding photos again
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for different email address for Keith 1/9/15 because the email address supplied for Keith was incorrect.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying KC was willing to help 1/10/15
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL to Lance asking what’s going on 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email Keith and Lance forwarding parts list and pictures again as per your request after another telephone call 1/14/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming Keith has been again forwarded all information. 1/14/15 and a copy of an email from Keith to Lance confirming that he wanted photos of all broken parts.
DT TO KC, email to Keith and Lance asking for a time frame on when I will get a response. 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email to Keith with parts list in response to Keith post on Cobra Forum. 2/4/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith received parts list 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/4/15 and confirming that I have never had a direct response from Keith.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying he thought I had been in contact with Keith. 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance stating that Keith has never responded to any emails. 2/5/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith would have a response tomorrow. 2/5/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/5/15.
KC TO DT, email from Lance asking for more information on what happened and how was engine used. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance explaining every detail of what occurred with engine. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for answers and update on where things were at 2/16/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance stating he would get back to me. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his advice and requesting immediate response. 2/17/15
KC TO DT , email confirming will let me know asap. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking where we are at 2/19/15

I’ve been more then patient but my patience has run out.



Regards

David Trask
Managing Director


And this is Lances reply

"You would have been more then welcome to come by here while in the US. I would have encouraged it so you could see as many have that we are not a tiny hole in the wall operation with kids building engines. I have spoke with Keith every time I have received emails. I have asked you several times to please email Keith directly. I am stuck in the middle on the deal. All I can do is relay info to him and he has to make the call. I would love to make a call for you but at this time I am not in the position to be able to make these type decisions. The issue with the heads are the core shift in Coons casting s and the reason we no longer use his heads, we now use the Pond. Our cnc machined cuts off the same location every time locating off the head dowel. If it goes thru because of core shift all we can do is weld the heads and pressure test. We do not install without a pressure test off the engine and then inspect on the dyno. I hate that they may have formed a crack after heat cycles on the heads but they would not have been installed if they were leaking here. We have absolutely no desire for any customers to have any issues with our engine. I was able to get Keith to agree to supply front cover and entire timing assembly from Pond as we feel these are the best kits out at this time. Please send an address and I will have the parts drop shipped. Once again I apologize for the issues and wish I could have helped you get answers sooner. Thanks

Lance Smith
Ph 870-246-7460
Fx 870-246-7418
3157 Hwy 26 W
Arkadelphia, AR 71923"



Whilst I appreciate that Lance is making every effort or at least appears to be trying to help out the response from Keith (the company owner) is far from satisfactory as a timing cover and chains are at best about $1,000 worth of parts and not everything required to fix the motor.

How on earth could damage send the engine back?
I mean KC have been negligent in returning calls & emails.
Would you trust them with getting the engine back to you?

Seemingly, Damage was also only just recently in the USA trying to organise a meet, KC dropped the ball on that too.
Lance from KC stated in his email to damage that Keith himself wasn't helping to resolve the situation.

What if YOU WANTED THE BEST OF THE BEST and discovered that the local bloke is better than the famed alternative you bought the engine off.
Would you send it back after being burnt off so many times just for the KC badge?

David Kirkham himself gave you damage's background
He knows elite quality work and didn't see it in his KC engine.

I've resisted the urge to pile on bc it does no one any good, but what if I told you I know of 3 blokes that this has happened to with KC. They fought it then cut their losses and ran.
Granted their engines didn't cost $60k. And whether keith himself built them is debatable. But they were KC Buiilt engines.

How easy is it to play the game of bluff on keith part, asking damage to ship the engine back from the other side of the world. When in actual fact they can't / haven't even supplied the JUST the parts required.

Gentleman damage isn't shooting bambi.
Bambi is seemingly tired, and not helping his cause!

Why are you all so quick to blame the victim here?

I don't think I've read it wrong! But no doubt you all tell me different.

[Joe's Garage]

I can think of a couple of reasons why damage would opt to not send the motor back, and shipping costs isn't one of them.

What tweaks were made to the motor after received? I hear rego registration is a biatch for you boomerang chuckers down under.

Was Joe Gibbs oil being used? A warranty requirement.

Maybe trying to fix something that isn't broken? Not at all uncommon in these here parts, damage seems like a guy who likes to fiddle with things.

Just say'in
Joe

[philminotti]

Hey Joe,

Why don't you take your whole 20 posts and crawl back under that bridge you came out from under. And take NYGuy with you...

[jhv48]

As KC stated back on February First.
The chain broke, valves hit pistons. Not an assembly failure, a parts failure. Send the engine back and he will fix it. The fact that you don't want to and choose to air your concerns on this forum is, once again, your choice. As far as I see, there was no problem with the heads, only the timing chain. They may have been reworked too much, but they didn't fail. The chain did, and when valves start hitting pistons, cracks can appear everywhere. Whether they were there before or after the incident is pure speculation. Needless to say, they won't be going back on the engine. The bottom end is probably fine but needs inspection to be safe. So, once again, end all this and simply sent the box of parts back and let him honor his warranty.

If I built that engine, then I personally would want to inspect it and the damage after the failure. I wouldn't take anyone's word unless they were my authorized agent. If you want it fixed, send it back and let him do it.

You may not want to have KC do the rebuild, and that is your choice. But then don't expect him to just send you a bunch of parts either. That's not how warranties work.

[damage]

Yeh right rend it back and get him to fix it.

3 months to get an answer that only came about because he got aggravated with what was on this forum. He could have quite easily have said that 1 week after the first email.

If it takes 3 months to get a reply I couldn't imagine how long a low priority non paying warranty claim would take to get repaired.

The cost prohibition that I spoke of well that was basically my polite way of saying I didn't want to gamble loosing my motor for 12 months or more.

[jhv48]

Why not give him the chance to make it right and then rake him over the coals if he fails to perform in a timely manner.

I bet if you kept us all apprised of his progress, it would speed up its completion.
KC sells a bunch of engines to people just like us and I'm sure he wants this problem resolved as much as you do. If you give him the chance and he fails to perform, then we'll all jump onto your bandwagon.

As it stands right now, I can see both sides and don't think either side is completely right or wrong.

Just more of my own opinions. And we all know what they smell like!

[Bernica]

I have tried to stay out of this, but the home builder analogies got me a bit since I am a builder of buildings and can only say that I have flown across the country to work things out with clients. Nobody is ever completely happy in my business and I expect that.

The reason I say this is that there is no substitute for "face time". Forget the emails, texts etc.

With proper resources I would pack it up, ship it and follow it there personally.
Then I would just have that face time, one-on-one and say "now what are we going to do?" and even stay there to make sure things are right and the way you wanted it.

There is nothing like actual face time, trust me.

Just my 2c

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I have tried to stay out of this, but the home builder analogies got me a bit since I am a builder of buildings and can only say that I have flown across the country to work things out with clients. Nobody is ever completely happy in my business and I expect that.

I could be completely off base with my analogy, but yes, you're right. In most business transactions, you want the client to be happy. Look up the definition of "Kirkham" in the dictionary. In the "building of buildings" business, customers almost unanimously expect a zero defect rate.

About sending back the engine to the States, including the porosity-ridden Coon heads and the defective chain drive, my philosophy in this matter is "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

$60,000.....40 miles.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

A roller tip rocker or a rocker on an SOHC engine will not have any rotation force on the valve at all beyond the very small (10 degree?) partial movement cause by the spring winding as it compresses. There is nothing there to cause the valve to rotate. Nothing. The normal and proper wear pattern on the tip of a race valve is a nearly straight line with no indication of rotation.

TL/DR: Eppur si muove. In fact, I don't think you can stop them from rotating unless you actively prevent it (mechanically).

Valve rotation: When a valve spring is compressed it twists. This twisting motion is imparted to the valve. I suspect inertia of the valve (spring, retainer, keeper) makes the assembly rotate. I also suspect the fleeting transition in motion from down to up plays some part in facilitating the rotation. Rotation evens out the heat on the valve and seat, helps to prevent the stem from sticking in the guide, and wipes carbon from the valve face and seat. Granted, I need to think about the physics more. Happy to hear any thoughts you all might have.

This leads us to Damage's marked valves. Why were they marked 360 degrees around the edge? I seriously doubt the valves were marked after the timing chain broke. Even though all hell does break loose after a timing chain breaks, I believe there are still clues in the aftermath. When the chain breaks, the valves stop opening and closing; therefore, they stop rotating. The 360 marks must have happened when the engine was running. There is simply no other conclusion that can be drawn. There are valve marks on the pistons. The pistons do not have valve relief 360 degrees around them. The valves have 360 degree marks on them. Therefore, the valves must have rotated during operation.

Was rotation cause by bent valves? I doubt it. Here's why. David Trask is among the very elite of the most elite athletes/drivers in the world. His skill, talent, reflexes, and experience is beyond what I can understand. I believe had the valve bent while David was driving he most certainly would have heard it/felt it/realized it and shut the engine down. I imagine during his career he very well may have gone through more engines than all of us combined. He is finely attuned to mechanical failure. F1 is not for the feint of heart. His life depended on hearing, feeling, seeing very subtle changes in his equipment and taking immediate, decisive action before tragedy occurred. No F1 title is worth his life. He knows when he has to shut down and he would have done it.

So, what is the most logical explanation? Quite possibly the valve to piston clearance was very, very tight...perhaps slightly too tight. Could a tapping have have led to instability in valve train, thus weakening the chain? I don't think we can rule that out.

Please take my comments as someone who is doing an autopsy from 7,000 miles away across the internet. I fully welcome differing points of view and thoughts. Indeed, I may be wrong in my thinking and am happy to be corrected. I only offer a theory, which certainly may be proven in error by any facts someone else can bring to this discussion.

Below are high speed videos of valves rotating.

[ame=http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyejoc_engine-valve-rotation-valve-guides_auto]Engine Valve Rotation & Valve Guides - Video Dailymotion[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019Jyn9oB5k[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtqDHJDN79w[/ame]

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by jhv48

Why not give him the chance to make it right and then rake him over the coals if he fails to perform in a timely manner.

I bet if you kept us all apprised of his progress, it would speed up its completion.
KC sells a bunch of engines to people just like us and I'm sure he wants this problem resolved as much as you do. If you give him the chance and he fails to perform, then we'll all jump onto your bandwagon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not exactly what Damage has done?
How much longer would you have waited?

According to him this things been going on for months now.