600 inch 850hp 460 in this months Hot Rod Magazine

[CobraEd]

This months Hot Rod Magazine which just arrived home yesterday gives a beautiful one page synopsis of how to build an all brand new 600 inch (8.9liter) 460 putting out 850 normally aspirated horsepower and 750 lb/ft of torque for $15k. It provides all of the actual part numbers of every single part as well as some brief explanations of how to build it. Everything you need is right there on one concise page. This is no nickle and dime operation either. This is a bullitproof engine with the Ford SVO siamese cylinder block with 4 bolt mains, a forged steel crank, steel rods, and forged pistons. I was impressed!!

Ed

[Hotfingrs]

Is this a trick article or what? I always thought 600 inches was 600 inches and 460 was the same...........460

[CobraEd]

That depends on which time zone you are in, and if you are left handed or right handed. This was my way of identifying the engine. It is a 429/460 **BLOCK** that is made to 600 cubes.

Ed

[Toivo]

This is something I've always wondered about, but no one could give me a straight answer.

400 SBC's had siamesed bores, and big problems with distorted bores leading to blown head gaskets because of them.
Steam holes were introduced into the heads to try to combat this problem, but it was/is still a problem.

What is there about the Ford siamese cylinder design that lets it be used on the street without similar problems?

Thanks

[Satanpez]

Toivo:

Could it be that the SBC blocks have the bolts near the bore? So that when they have the heads torqued down, they pull the bore out of round? I've read that it has been a problem, and that is the reason for deck plates used when boring.

-steve in nj-

[Toivo]

No, it actually has to do with the fact that the water jacket doesn't go completely around the cylinder wall, leading to hot spots and trapping steam under the deck surface. Steam holes help release the trapped steam, but the cylinders still experience uneven cooling and actually warp because of it, leading to the head gaskets unsealing and blowing.

I've always heard not to use siamese bores on the street. Maybe somethings different about Ford's design. If so, I haven't heard a good explanation of why, yet.

[Hotfingrs]

I've had several engines built with the 400 sbc, all in the 600hp plus range, and have never had a problem with head caskets. Of course the heads did have the steam holes in them. The current engine that I am using also has the heads drilled between the middle cylinders by the plugs, and the water pump is also drilled on each side and a braided line runs from the pump to the heads. The intake manifold also has front to rear cooling lines.

These engines see weekly trips to the drag strip and the "occasional" friday or saturday night blast down the highway of life......

[Toivo]

Originally posted by Hotfingrs
I've had several engines built with the 400 sbc, all in the 600hp plus range, and have never had a problem with head caskets. Of course the heads did have the steam holes in them. The current engine that I am using also has the heads drilled between the middle cylinders by the plugs, and the water pump is also drilled on each side and a braided line runs from the pump to the heads. The intake manifold also has front to rear cooling lines.

These engines see weekly trips to the drag strip and the "occasional" friday or saturday night blast down the highway of life......

So WITH the steam holes, drilled heads, drilled waterpump, and external cooling lines, you can get the engine to last on the track and light (low miles) street use.

My point exactly. What would be needed on a Ford siamesed cylinder block to get it to last? Same thing; nothing because the Ford design is 'better', something less but still something...?

Like I said, I've heard siamese bores are trouble on the street. I still haven't heard anything to disabuse me of this impression.

Thanks

[cobrashoch]

Toivo- Siamesed blocks are ok to use on the street but they must be used on a case by case basis. The chevy blocks(bowtie block)
problem is the physical lenth of the block is to short to accomidate those 4 and 1/8 th bores without squeesing them together. This is not the case on big blocks. The best BB block for that is the Mopar peice that has around 1/8 th inch common walls at 4 and 1/2 inch bores. The Ford 460 stock water block was designed for 4 and 1/2 inch bores(block lenth) so I wouldn't be afraid to use the SVT block either. Same for the Chevy BB to. Plenty for short use street trips of 200 or 300 miles or so. They all have the common problem of having a hotspot on the common walls at the head surface so the smart thing to do there is to keep the compression ratios down. That's the way most guys are building them anyway so it's not a problem usially. Fords street siamesed small block was a Australian Cleveland block that was used on production cars with no problems I am told. (it must have been heavy) So I would sonic check any block first before any build. I have seen bowtie SB blocks that had so much core shift that I could not parallel bore them off the deck plate to square them up, the results would be to thin! So at least in my experience anyway the Chevy small blocks are the exception and NOT the rule, and siamesed blocks will work on the street. But you must use your head about it to. High compression mega horsepower engines don't work long on the street with standard blocks usially. A siamesed block is just another factor in that equation.
cobrashock

[Hotfingrs]

I really think you're missing something here. How many 400 engines did GM produce? Also what I've done to my current engine is not out of necessity, it was done because I wanted everything possible to make sure nothing goes wrong. I've got $15,000 in this thing, and believe a few extra dollars are well worth it.

But from your posts, you're to pro ford to understand another point of view

[cobrashoch]

Jack- Hope you did you get me wrong too. I am not married to ANY brand. PERIOD! Actually I am a very old hemi builder. Have been building Detroit iron since the early 60's. Guess all those Corvettes I have owned in the last 10 years or so don't count.

The 400 is Chevys problem child. Problem is it was never designed for performance applacations. That's not to say it can't be hotrodded, it can. But you have to do so much more to it to make it work,,,,,,,read--- $$$$$$ dollars$$$$$$ ! Even hardcore Chevy guys that bracket race use 383's (350 blocks) most times. Why? The 400 is just not worth the effort most times to use. Of recent there has been many high cube attempts at this block but I have not heard of any successfull attempts with long-givitity in mine. At least for street use anyway. As for the SB bowtie block, I'am not the only one thats fought their builds. Just ask any high end builder that's tried to performance build them as I have.(2 or 3 in the last year or so)

As for the other brands, Yes in this case they are better. Much better. The ford SVT smallblock is a Clevleland design that has none of the probems the bowtie block has.(except oiling?) To many guys running around this joint w/427,408 SB Ford combos with high milage that were built for around 10k or less $$$$$ to argue with them. There IS a history here.

Again, I am not married to any brand. PERIOD! But I can see when something is better. Take that from a unoffical Chrysler guy.
cobrashoch

[scottj]

Higher rpm's (above 3000) will keep the Chevy purged of steam which is why steam holes aren't used on a race engine. The big problem is that the center exhaust ports are too close together on the Chevy. This causes a hot-spot that increases relative to power. The aftermarket came up with the spead-port exhaust and we run external coolant lines to remedy the problem. The exhaust port location and the resultant problems like blown head gaskets and cracked heads was one of the major design considerations when Chevy went to the drawing board to design the canted-valve and then the SB2 head.
I don't believe the Ford head suffers from this cooling related problem.

[Venom S]

All this discussion about the use of siamese blocks on the street has me concerned, since I'm planning on building a 557 cubic inch big block Ford using their SVO Sportmans Block (M-6010-A460). I will be using a Lunati stroker kit with about 11:1 compression, and a Crane Cams mechanical roller cam (.718/.718 lift, 284/294 duration). For heads I'm going to use either Blue Thunder, or the Ford SVO aluminum heads (M-6049-C460) designed expressly for the A460 block.

Will I be risking a blown head gasket since I'm going to drive this car on the street as well as the track?

You advice and helpful hints is readily appreciated.

Venom_S

[CobraEd]

Venom S,

If you are going to go thru all the cost and effort anyway, you should check out the article and make it a 600 incher while your at it.

Ed

[Venom S]

Ed -

After I read your post about the 600 cubic incher, I went to three seperate stores to buy the magazine. But no one had Hot Rod Magazine. I will keep looking, as I'm very interested in it.

I can get 600 cubic inches by using a different Lunati stroker kit. The one I listed above is a 4.3" stroke. I could go with a 4.5" stroke and increase the bore from 4.540 to 4.600. However, the max you can bore the block is 4.625 per Ford's literature. Going with a 4.600 bore might be a bit much and make the walls between the bores too thin for me.

Anyway, I really want to read the artice. I will continue to look for it.

Venom_S

[CobraEd]

I don't have a scanner to get you the whole page, but I will bring the magazine in to work tommorow and type in the key components and part numbers to get you to 600".

Ed

[Venom S]

Thanks Ed.

You da man!!!

[Toivo]

Originally posted by Hotfingrs
I really think you're missing something here. How many 400 engines did GM produce? Also what I've done to my current engine is not out of necessity, it was done because I wanted everything possible to make sure nothing goes wrong. I've got $15,000 in this thing, and believe a few extra dollars are well worth it.

But from your posts, you're to pro ford to understand another point of view

I'm not necessarily pro-Ford or pro-anything other than what's 'best' for the application. For 60's Fords, in my opinion, that would be the FE. Currently, for my driver, I think the GM 2.4L DOHC is the best engine around. It is all dependant on the application. I am a major, major believer in the value of power-to-weight ratios.

As for the siamese cylinder problem, I know why it exists, both in the GM 400 and the SVO blocks...trying to get the maximum bore out of a limited length of block casting. I know there were problems with the GM attempt at this with the 400. Because GM sold a large number of these engines in production cars, the flaws of the design became well-known and solutions or work-arounds were engineered. The problem was studied and for the most part, could be taken care of.

The same can not be said of any Ford siamese-cylinder engines. Most of these are available only through SVO/Ford Racing for racing purposes only. How these engines' longevity with siamese bores in street use, are affected by their designs doesn't seem to have received the same amount of time/effort/study as the production GM400 has. This has been my question. Does the siamese cylinders in SVO racing blocks cause problems in extended use on the street (and I'm not talking 20 miles or even 2,000 miles, I'm talking extended use...road trips, daily driver use). I have never gotten a good answer from someone who has actually used an SVO block in such situations/conditions.

Maybe the 600 builders can get back to us, or if there are any AL351SVO blocked engines out there, we could hear some real life experiences. Until then, the use of siamesed-cylinder blocks on the street continues to raise red flags and big question marks in my mind.

Thanks

[cobrashoch]

Venom S - I am on my 3RD engine build in about 10 years for a street cobra using 460 stuff. This is what I found to work best on the street short of supercharging.
1st- best crank throw is a 4 1/2 incher, I am using a Howards with the chevy journal setup. Dependent on comp. ratio use the longest rod you can jam in there.
2nd- block, SVT, 4.5 in bore max. More than that on the thrust side you will get increased wear on street engines, esp. if you use a 6.8 rod like I had to.(try to use a 7in chev. rod if possible)
3rd-Cam, solid roller with .65 lift max. Try to spit the overlap of the race cam listings you see and increase the overlap by 2 degrees. Increase the duration on both sides a bit on the least wild cam you find in the listings. DO NOT run a .7 + lift cam on the street as I see commonlly listed by Crain , ETC. I Can't overstate this enough!
4th- Heads, Blue Thunder w/chevy ports and very minor head port work. Used the blue thunder intake. It gives more on the bottom end than a Victor Jr.
5th- for other guys reading this stuff, the blue thunder main girtle
for stock blocks is the best in the business. USE IT!

Last but not least- use a custom made oil pan that has 4 way baffles on the street. I am using a Stefs pan but there is many folks out there that will build it. You will have to go this way if you use a main girtle anyway.
BTY- The ford svt block is a very good block for the street, just rememberthat it is slightly heavier than a stock iron block.
cobrashoch

[Venom S]

Thanks Ron

Here is what I've put together so far (on paper):

Ford SVO block (M-6010-A460) - 10.322 deck height, max bore 4.625, max stroke 4.500, 4 bolt mains on 2,3,4

Scat stroker nodular iron crank with 4.300 stroke, 4.540 bore pistons, 6.800 H-beam rods, and 28cc dished pistons.

I was thinking of using Ford's SVO Wedge style aluminum heads with raised intake/exhaust ports. 72cc chambers, 2.4 intakes, and 1.88 exhaust.

Why is the Crane Cams .718 lift cam not the way to go? With the huge valves and large ports, it should flow great. I would hate to undercam the thing. I found a Comp Cams mechanical roller with .657/.664 lift and 280/286 duration. Would that be a better choice?

Going with Canton's road race oil pan (7-qt) with baffles and matching pickup.

Let me know what you think about this.

Regards

Venom_S