429/460 Overheating Issue

[Speedwaypj]

Head Orientation
I'm sure someone would have mentioned this by now.....but are the heads interchangeable....
i.e. Right head and left head...as I bought it in a basket in '71 so I never knew which head was which.....

The heads are '68 ..... C8VE-E (said to come out of a '69 T-Bird).
Interesting..the cast # C8VE-E are right above the second exhaust port from the right (as you look from the headers)....One is inverted...the number is upside down....Why????

If I had to change them out...now would be a good time:-)

Thx.
PJ

[Speedwaypj]

Good thought...but when I'd try one it was right side down...
!
I got the intake off and drilled/tapped..need to pick up parts and reassemble w/bleed hoses...
Thx
PJ

[FWB]

you will still be needing a shroud with the purchase of the spal.
the lincoln or the tarus assembly will be a complete assembly just requiring mounting and wiring. blocking any gaps for air to go around the radiator is key. air will take the path of least resistance.

[BOBOCobra]

I agree 100%with FWB. You need a system geared to a "street" car which means you need to move more air. I use dual Derale 12" fans, shrouded tight, each pull 2000 CFM, with both running at idle I estimate it is equal to about 35mph. MORE AIR, MORE WATER, BURP. It is essential. Make sure you have a high spot for the air to migrate and purge out automatically.

[BOBOCobra]

Derale Part no. 16825 but I had to modify the shroud to fit my rad and layout.

[ByronRACE]

That lincoln puller fan recommended above moves a TON of air. You can buy them new, as well...try rockauto. If you have room for it, that would be a great option. I used one on my truck; it's amazing.

460's should not run hot. A friend runs an oil cooler; and we had to add a thermostat (which never opens) to the oil path because he couldn't get it up to temperature. This was in a Superformance.

[520SC]

Today's radiator back flush did nothing to improve system performance. I was hoping to see a large camel-sized turd blow out of that pipe upon initial pressurization, but just a few chunks and a lot of gray water were present. The mechanic went through three cycles of 20 flushes/cycle. Nada. The result? No performance improvement. His initial checks (system pressure drop test, and exhaust gas contamination test) were negative. So, for my $243, I gained nothing...well, sort of. At least I know for sure that my primary (Griffin) radiator is not the problem.

[ByronRACE]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ran across this today in my amazon saved items list...thought it might be helpful.

[ByronRACE]

By the way, a typical 40/50A automotive relay will *not* power that fan reliably. I tried. I even tried two in parallel. Nope. They both failed and had me cutting and twisting wires together on the road...

This relay, however, has lasted over 60K miles in my truck switching on and off the high circuit on the fan only.

https://www.amazon.com/TE-BOSCH-Curr...osch+75A+relay

Additionally, you want to run at least 12ga wire to the fan. I originally ran 14ga wire and found that there was a 2volt drop at the fan when the fan was running, and the wires would get warm. I ran 10ga and the fan ran noticeably faster with much less drop.

[ByronRACE]

The lincoln fan idea was one, behind the radiator, as a puller. No pushers, no mechanical.

I like mechanical fans actually. Reliable and simple. It's just not as easy to work on up there with all that fan and shroud and stuff in the way. When I changed to electric on my truck, I was amazed how convenient it suddenly became to work on. Since then, I've roadside repaired a water pump, tensioner, belt, alternator...all made much easier with all that room up there from the factory fan and shroud delete.

In a Cobra, the heating problems are typically when parked. Electrics really shine in that situation; you still get full cooling power at idle. If the mechanical works well enough at idle, I think that's a win. Simple is better.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ran across this today in my amazon saved items list...thought it might be helpful.

Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/rnb-620-118/

Rock Auto: https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/do...+assembly,2181

[FWB]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ran across this today in my amazon saved items list...thought it might be helpful.

Careful, the Dorman may look almost the same but its performance is far below the factory lincoln unit.
the blades are a different shape and there is one less blade.

i put a lincoln fan in another kellison with a 429 SCJ, which always ran hot previously, i used a flexolite programmable controller to set the on and off temps, and it worked flawlessly, had to make two clearance cuts in the shroud for hood hinge clearance and block off the opening between the rad and the inside of the body.

[Speedwaypj]

It's obvious the electric fan (Mark VIII) seems to be the best option...or one similar in CFM.

However, "The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra"........ So many of the articles over the years talk about heat trapped in the engine compartment.....I'm not worry about HP...it'll be fine!

SO, I'll need some type of electrical fan (Mark VIII) to help out the Mechanical Fan...to keep it cool....
Maybe I'll get one shortly just to satisfy myself....before I mount the body..

(cycleguy55 - Sorry about Grandma!)

Thanks all, some very good info and thanks to ByronRACE and cycleguy55 for references for parts!
PJ

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Speedwaypj

It's obvious the electric fan (Mark VIII) seems to be the best option...or one similar in CFM.

However, "The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra"........ So many of the articles over the years talk about heat trapped in the engine compartment.....I'm not worry about HP...it'll be fine!

SO, I'll need some type of electrical fan (Mark VIII) to help out the Mechanical Fan...to keep it cool....
Maybe I'll get one shortly just to satisfy myself....before I mount the body..

(cycleguy55 - Sorry about Grandma!)

Thanks all, some very good info and thanks to ByronRACE and cycleguy55 for references for parts!
PJ

Based upon what I see in your video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcaeBe7fAg ) it appears you have lots of room to install an electric puller. You could pull the shroud, install the fan, and re-install the shroud. You'd have the cooling you need for crawling in traffic and the mechanical fan to keep air moving through the engine compartment at all times.

Good luck.

[Speedwaypj]

Update:
- I R&R intake gasket with Fel-Pro which block the exhaust cross-over.
- I used the "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" to try to eliminate any air pockets.....it actually worked pretty well.
- I did add the bleed lines to the intake. I drilled a hole in each intake side matching the (blocked) head water ports. Tapped (1/8 NPT) for small hose fittings and connected them with a "T" and then ran it to the gooseneck.
As I mentioned previously the radiator is new; but I have taken it off again and back flushed.....seems to flow fine.

- Results. ( 80+F) ...not much difference.....(I have an in-line radiator cap - no surge tank yet - on order)....I used a "Spill-free-funnel" to be able to monitor it.
- It pushed out about a pint+ or so....it started from about 5 minutes on.
- Also notices very tiny bubbles occasionally....from 15 minutes and even some at 45 minutes.
- I also ran a Strong garage fan on the radiator the whole time....at 40 minutes it was at 195,....when I turned the Fan off for 3 minutes, it went to 210; turned fan back on and it went down to 205.
- When I revved the engine for a minute it would drop a few degrees.

My goal is to keep the mechanical fan, build a better shroud and add two front fans (ERA type). (yes I'm sure the Mark VIII fans would work best).

Next - integrate the expansion/surge tank (and overflow tank);
- Maybe get an undersize water pump pulley.

Again, thanks all!
PJ

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Speedwaypj

Update:
- I R&R intake gasket with Fel-Pro which block the exhaust cross-over.
- I used the "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" to try to eliminate any air pockets.....it actually worked pretty well.
- I did add the bleed lines to the intake. I drilled a hole in each intake side matching the (blocked) head water ports. Tapped (1/8 NPT) for small hose fittings and connected them with a "T" and then ran it to the gooseneck.
As I mentioned previously the radiator is new; but I have taken it off again and back flushed.....seems to flow fine.

- Results. ( 80+F) ...not much difference.....(I have an in-line radiator cap - no surge tank yet - on order)....I used a "Spill-free-funnel" to be able to monitor it.
- It pushed out about a pint+ or so....it started from about 5 minutes on.
- Also notices very tiny bubbles occasionally....from 15 minutes and even some at 45 minutes.
- I also ran a Strong garage fan on the radiator the whole time....at 40 minutes it was at 195,....when I turned the Fan off for 3 minutes, it went to 210; turned fan back on and it went down to 205.
- When I revved the engine for a minute it would drop a few degrees.

My goal is to keep the mechanical fan, build a better shroud and add two front fans (ERA type). (yes I'm sure the Mark VIII fans would work best).

Next - integrate the expansion/surge tank (and overflow tank);
- Maybe get an undersize water pump pulley.

Again, thanks all!
PJ

"Since a belt-driven fan increases speed (and airflow) with engine speed, it can move more air at higher engine rpm - usually above 2,400 rpm - than an electric fan. Conversely, electric fans move more air than belt-driven fans at engine speeds below 2,400 rpm in typical applications."
Source: https://www.flex-a-lite.com/blog/whi...lt-driven-fan/

In what RPM range are you experiencing cooling issues? Lower RPM, as you indicated "When I revved the engine for a minute it would drop a few degrees."

Electric fans run the same speed regardless of engine speed. A typical electric fan is going to be turning 2,000 - 3,000 RPM - even when your engine is idling. Your flex fan, OTOH, is directly linked to engine speed. Even if you're running a 20% overdrive, at an 800 RPM idle speed it's turning 960 RPM - less than half of what an electric fan will be turning on LOW.

In addition, most higher CFM electric fans like the one for the Lincoln Mk VIII, are using curved scimitar blades which are more efficient both for power and for air flow. Your straight-bladed flex fan - uh, not so much.

Finally, the shroud on an electric fan almost certainly has much smaller clearances to the fan than does your shroud. Mechanical fans are attached to the engine and the engine moves, so clearances can't be as tight. Tighter clearances mean more airflow.

In no characteristic is a mechanical fan superior to a modern electric fan. If you believe the nostalgic look is more important then go with it - but be prepared to accept its many limitations.

Garage cooling fans are great, but you're not getting 2,500 - 3,000 CFM ducted through your radiator. Get your hands on a good electric puller and try it out - even if just to satisfy curiosity. I believe that will solve your problem.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Speedwaypj

Update:
- I R&R intake gasket with Fel-Pro which block the exhaust cross-over.
- I used the "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" to try to eliminate any air pockets.....it actually worked pretty well.
- I did add the bleed lines to the intake. I drilled a hole in each intake side matching the (blocked) head water ports. Tapped (1/8 NPT) for small hose fittings and connected them with a "T" and then ran it to the gooseneck.
As I mentioned previously the radiator is new; but I have taken it off again and back flushed.....seems to flow fine.

- Results. ( 80+F) ...not much difference.....(I have an in-line radiator cap - no surge tank yet - on order)....I used a "Spill-free-funnel" to be able to monitor it.
- It pushed out about a pint+ or so....it started from about 5 minutes on.
- Also notices very tiny bubbles occasionally....from 15 minutes and even some at 45 minutes.
- I also ran a Strong garage fan on the radiator the whole time....at 40 minutes it was at 195,....when I turned the Fan off for 3 minutes, it went to 210; turned fan back on and it went down to 205.
- When I revved the engine for a minute it would drop a few degrees.

My goal is to keep the mechanical fan, build a better shroud and add two front fans (ERA type). (yes I'm sure the Mark VIII fans would work best).

Next - integrate the expansion/surge tank (and overflow tank);
- Maybe get an undersize water pump pulley.

Again, thanks all!
PJ

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen any posts about the normal expansion / contraction of coolant in the system. Coolant expands at about 7% per 100°C / 212°F of temperature rise. That's why coolant recovery bottles have separate marks for Cold and Hot.

If your engine is 'cold' at 70°F, then going to 210°F, that's a rise of 140°F, and the coolant will expand about 4.6% (140 ÷ 212 x 7% = 4.6%). Assuming a total coolant volume of 15 quarts, the amount of expansion will be 0.69 quarts, or about 22 ounces or 1.38 pints (15 x 4.6% = 0.69).

It would appear the "pint + or so" amount of coolant being pushed out is quite typical - certainly well within the range of 'normal'.

BTW, running a 21# cap is okay if your system is designed and built for that level of pressure. Many cooling systems, OTOH, were designed for 15 PSI or lower and won't handle that pressure reliably. You have a new radiator, so may not have any issues running that kind of cap, but I would be cautious about using a higher pressure cap than the system is designed for.

[Texasdoc]

Just an honest question... Not trying to pick a fight.

You need better airflow to cool your radiator. But you refuse to replace the mechanical fan that is the root of the problem. Why keep complaining about too much heat if you won't fix the main problem?

It's cool if you want the look and are willing to trade the "look" vs "running too hot" but you can't have both. Your call.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Just an honest question... Not trying to pick a fight.

You need better airflow to cool your radiator. But you refuse to replace the mechanical fan that is the root of the problem. Why keep complaining about too much heat if you won't fix the main problem?

It's cool if you want the look and are willing to trade the "look" vs "running too hot" but you can't have both. Your call.

I'm reminded of my grandmother's many trips to various doctors, seeking the cause of her ailments and the magic potion that would cure her ills.

She never could accept the fact she was in her mid-'90s - and her problems were simply that she was getting older. She finally passed away a few months after turning 100.

[ByronRACE]

I think you'll find that you need LESS fan when the vehicle is in motion; which is one major benefit of an electric fan. You're not burning power moving all that air needlessly. Better for gas mileage; which we all know if high on our priority list. My point is, a garage fan is nothing compared to the vehicle going down the road at 30+mph. In my case, the fan turns off and stays off at freeway speeds; even when climbing a grade. If you slow down below 30mph, it comes on. When you get off the freeway and pull up to the first stop sign, it turns on.