429/460 Overheating Issue

[Speedwaypj]

Overheating Issue.
Building '67 Cobra Rpl - engine in frame - using large garage fan for cooling.
'69 Ford 429 Stroked to 460, Comp Cam, Rods, Pistons, Holley 750cfm, Edelbrock Torker II Intake, roller rockers, High flow/High Pressure Fuel Pump, High flow/High Pressure Oil Pump, High flow/High Pressure Water pump. Around 11:1 Comp est.
Initial timing @ 12 D BTDC;
Running w/o thermostat (Tried 180 and 160 - overheats)
Radiator Cap inline with output.

PART 1:
With Temp = 72 degrees....ran for 100 Minutes (stationary) with the following results.....
Fan on High – 45 minutes
= temp at 195 degrees Oil @ 50# psi
Fan on Medium – 60 minutes (Total)
= 212 degrees Oil @ 42# (Oil filter = 218)
Fan on LOW – 70 minutes (Total)
= 230 degrees Oil @ 39# (Oil filter = 234)
started pushing water out –all most filled overflow quart bottle.
Fan back on High at 70 – 100 minutes
= temp down to 210 degrees Oil @ 39#

With the thermostat installed it'll go up to 230 degrees and keep climbing.

So, I read many posts and nothing seems to jump out....other than someone pointed out that if the head gaskets are installed backwards it may cause overheating because the gasket should have larger holes to the rear. I have included pics of my gasket and block. It does seem as though the gasket may be backwards per location of degrading holes. However, looking at the pictures, Its hard for me to believe that would make a difference...
Might get a water pressure gauge to monitor it....and try the timing at 16 D BTDC.....
Thoughts? Opinions? Experience?

PART 2:
When first starts, it pushes about 1/2 qt within first couple of minutes.. Because cap is low and high flow Water pump? So with the water pushing out I was thinking of putting the radiator cap on the “low pressure” side of the radiator, there is a petcock on the top that I can hook into and set up a pressure can and overflow...would this work?
Any comments would be appreciated.......SpeedwayPJ
Here is video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcaeBe7fAg

[Gaz64]

Head gaskets looks backwards to me.

Coolant flows through the block to rear, then up, then forward through the heads.

The rear block passage is not in the first photo, but the front is open.

Gary

[cycleguy55]

How fast was the engine turning when you ran it for the times listed? Was it idling or running faster than that? I've found my temperature drops when I rev it up a bit - the water pump may not be moving enough at low RPM.

I don't know what the CFM is on that fan, but the fact it's not ducted or shrouded to the radiator significantly reduces it's effectiveness. Electric cooling fans move a lot of air - probably much more than that garage fan. Consider it's not uncommon for them to draw 30 or 40 amps - or more. This setup is 4,000 CFM and 50 amps.

Coolant temperatures don't seem that high, quite frankly, especially given the unshrouded fan. Radiators under pressure won't boil over until they're over 250 deg. F - add ethylene glycol and the boiling point is raised further.

Edit: Never mind...

[520SC]

The last time I installed a new head gasket on a Ford 460, the two largest holes at the top (the ones that look like large triangles) extended into the lifter galley without any obstructions. I can definitely see head material through those holes in the pic you provided. Your gasket was installed upside down. I can't say that's the cause of your engine cooling problem, but I can tell that the gasket is not properly installed.

[Tom Wells]

What Gary (Gaz64) said...

It's the rectangular opening just above the spray can cap in the first photo - that needs to be at the rear of the block. If you look at them, the 460 head gaskets have the other end blocked off - it goes to the front. Definitely contributes to overheating. Sorry 'bout that!

Tom

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

What Gary (Gaz64) said...

It's the rectangular opening just above the spray can cap in the first photo - that needs to be at the rear of the block. If you look at them, the 460 head gaskets have the other end blocked off - it goes to the front. Definitely contributes to overheating. Sorry 'bout that!

Tom

That makes sense - that opening provides coolant to the rear of the heads.

Flow is front to back in block and back to front in heads - correct?

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

That makes sense - that opening provides coolant to the rear of the heads.

Flow is front to back in block and back to front in heads - correct?

Correct.

[Speedwaypj]

Thanks for ALL the feedback; I can see the square edge of the head gasket at the rear of the left head......So I am looking forward to fixing that....Again, thanks to everyone! Pic a little fuzzy (evidently I might have been also when installing it) but it shows the wrong orientation.....but good news....The right side is good! So I'll see what I can get done today (Promised wife a winery visit today)..
Thanks....PJ

[keezling]

Ford head gasket lower corners have a rounded shape on one end and a square shape on the other. This allows you to check gasket orientation with the heads on. The square corner goes to the front both sides. It's designed to stick out and be visible with engine assembled.

[FWB]

yep coolant cutout goes towards rear of engine not the front like the pic.

[PeteF]

I had a similar problem with an Edelbrock hi flow water pump. Temp would go to 230 and the cooling system would burp/lose pressure. I finally installed a standard- flow water pump and everything returned to normal. I assume the pump was cavitating, but could not find anything wrong with it (impeller turning the right direction, etc).

[keezling]

BTW, unless I misunderstood you the center hole in the intake gasket is not a water port but a exhaust crossover port to heat the carb to aid cold start warm up and cold weather drivability. Most hotrodders block it off as their thinking is to keep heat away from the carb. This explains the two styles of gaskets.

[Speedwaypj]

Thanks again all! Sorry - I can't upload pictures....

INTAKE:
Yes, that center opening in the Intake Gasket is for Exhaust....That must be why I had a left over intake set....Plan to change that out....
Speaking of manifold; in one of the forums someone drilled/tapped into the water jacket and connected to the goose neck to help relieve air pocket....so is this area at the rear of the manifold the place to drill/tap? there is a head water jacket that fed the stock manifold in that location.

BURP:
So, since my kids are in their mid 30's I'm not sure if I burped my Cobra correctly (trying to get air pocket out), but I have a very steep driveway and ran it for 20 minutes...did not see it burp.

RADIATOR:
It has two petcocks; and I have the smaller inlet tube 1 1/2" up top... 1 3/4" return at bottom.

OVERFLOW:
I have a catch can; however I do not have an expansion tank which should help with the push out. When the engine cools it does suck the water back into the block. Also I'm wondering about installing the expansion tank on the "Low pressure" side of the radiator.

WATER PUMP:
So, I am running a "High Flow" water pump with standard pulley.

Mechanical Fan:
Thinking of switching out my 6-blade flex fan for a 7 blade flex fan 18 1/4".

AUX FAN:
I'd like to use the ERA's Dual Front Fans. See Pic...not sure of CFM.
Front fans

I'm not sure if consistency is good in this situation.....
I installed a pressure gauge and it starts overflowing around 14-15psi. It was suggested to go to an 18 - 21# cap.

Monday's Run:
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

Tuesday's Run: about the same...
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

But - that motor sounds real good!

[Gaz64]

240 is way too hot for my liking.

I would be measuring the coolant temp at the top and bottom hoses with an infrared temp gun.

The thermostat would be at max lift, and so the radiator and fan combo is not doing it's job.

Gary

[jhv48]

Replace the thermostat.

[BOBOCobra]

520SC-Here is the question What does it do with Ram Air? If you run at the correct temp while cruising then your radiator is sufficient. At Ram Air you are moving large SFM of air and pushing more water, If you are at say 190 at ram air then you should be 10-15 degrees higher in traffic if you have the right plumbing and fans. Puller fans are WAY more efficient than pushers and dual 12" are way better than a single 16". You can offset them and cover a high percentage of the core and pull large amounts of air at idle and low speeds.
Good Shrouds
Efficient air flow
Good Water flow
Proper Plumbing to allow for proper expansion and return and to release trapped air.
Those are the keys,
My bet is your Griffin is way more efficient than my crappy rad and I drive in 105 ambient and heavy traffic and 212 is the highest I have seen and that was lugging up a steep grade behind an idiot on a 100 degree day.

[jhv48]

With all your telling us about your engine and cooling system, it should be running much cooler than it is.

Are you sure you didn't install the thermostat backwards? It happened to me and my temps mirrored yours until I found the problem.

[FWB]

you keep mentioning a flex fan, gives me an image of a cheapo aftermarket mechanical fan to replace a factory steel fan. if i'm correct in my assumption get rid of that damn thing, find yourself a taurus or lincoln mark VIII fan and shroud assembly.

those two pusher fans you posted a link to, may block more air than provide cooling

[cycleguy55]

That's the key question, right? Here's our advice: If you are looking for a performance upgrade then the electric fan is for you. Make sure the electric fan covers 70 percent of the radiator core and moves enough airflow for the engine size (a rule of thumb is at least 2,800 cfm for a 5.0L engine). The electric fan would be a cooling solution for vehicles that typically drive at low vehicle speeds with low engine rpm, such as cruising. If you have a 4-core radiator or towing heavy loads then we recommend you stick with a belt driven fan.
https://www.flex-a-lite.com/blog/whi...lt-driven-fan/

Electric fans now outperform mechanical fans in nearly every application, except towing and dirt oval track racing.

Flex fans are a poor design for performance applications. They move less air at higher RPM, and only consume a fraction less power than standard fixed pitch fans.

Clutch-style fans are inconsistent and we do not recommend their use for any application, if possible.
Stewart Components

[Speedwaypj]

August 9th update -
overheating...... I have tried several things....no real difference ....Motor runs great!
So I’ve tried several combinations and the engine seems to want to run hot....actually ..

Overview; ‘69 429 stroked to 460, 9k on block – bought in ‘71 – now sitting in Cobra rpl frame.
Fresh build – everything changed out (crank/rods/pistons/cam/springs/all bearings/rockers/Hi flow oil pump/ hi flow water pump – (with new backing plate)/Dissy/Holley 750/intake/starter – all except heads n valves.
I’ve run this motor for about 15 hrs over several months;
I’ve replaced the left bank head gasket because it was incorrect. Gasket and block and head looked great.
Running 6-blade Flex-Fan with shroud.
Radiator – New Hi per aluminum ($500) – took off and flushed – its clear
Initial timing @ 16 (tried 6, 8, 12, 18)

Issue – pushes qt of antifreeze out before it even gets hot – tends to run Hot.
Put 21# radiator cap on and it didn’t push any water out, but wanted to get up in temp (220 – 235)
It acts as though there is an air pocket. I bought a non-spill funnel to get air bubbles out....ran it for about 45 minutes on a steep incline, a few bubbles, but then it just overheated and blasted antifreeze all over...(235 F).
Tried funnel a second time...same – pushed out 1 – 1/2 qt antifreeze.
Ran compression test – 175; 170; 165; 170; 165; 170; 174; 175 – with closed throttle (couldn’t do WOT and crank).
(9K miles on cylinders; New pistons; honed cyl only)

I need to turn on aux garage fan to keep it down to 210 after 1/2 hr.
====================================
Seems like large air pocket......I can’t get air out.....
1. so I ordered a -
Automotive Radiator Cooling System Vacuum Purge and Refill Radiator Kit CarTruck
Automotive Radiator Cooling System Vacuum Purge and Refill Radiator Kit CarTruck | eBay

2. Someone mentioned running bleed lines from the back of the engine to the water outlet. So I plan to drill/tap the back end of the Edelbrock manifold where the rear head water ports hit the manifold. (The stock manifold has a water passage across the back). Then tie the hoses together and run it to the top of the goose neck...and maybe put a bleeder valve on top of that.
If anyone has done this please chime in as I’ll take any information available.

There’s a zillion BBFs out there, Help......