Definitive Fix for Starter Misalignment

[ByronRACE]

If you think you're going to simply ovalize the bottom bolt hole and pivot the starter over closer or further from the ring gear when using a FORD F250 starter, don't overlook the fact that it has a locating ring that mates with the bellhousing. It's not so easy. I've been there.

Someone needs to make a 460 starter that (1) does not have this locating ring and (2) has a simple adjuster that pivots the starter as-needed and (3) has an inspection hole so you can see the starter gear and ring gear with the starter installed (without removing the transmission). This would be an obvious hot seller...this problem is widespread.

If such a starter existed, all you'd do is back the adjustment nut off, install it, spin the adjusting bolt until it's tight, then back it off X turns...and tighten the main mounting bolts. Someone please make this so I don't have to.

Byron

P.S. If anyone cares, drilling/modifying your lakewood bellhousing voids the SFI certification Also, the root-cause of this problem (according to and old timer at Tilton) is that Lakewood used an FE flyweel when mocking up their bellhousing design and has yet to fix it.

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

After discussing with several starter specialists, I can't agree with you more. When I had my engine out of the car, I was able to do a lot of fitment tests. As luck would have it, I have a stock "block plate" for a 460 that I bolted up with the Lakewood block plate. Doing this, I confirmed that the registration diameter for for the starter in the Lakewood block plate is precisely in the same position as the one in the stock plate. The stock starter has the pinion centrally located in the registration diameter, as does the starter I bought from RobbMc. Any starter that has an offset pinion is likely to have problems. Both the Summit and Ford Racing starters had some offset. The stock starter also has 9 pinion teeth, as does Robb's starter. The pinion on the Summit Protorque starter has 11 teeth. And, surprisingly, the mini starter I bought from Ford Racing has 10 teeth. Seems that nothing matches the stock alignment geometry except a stock starter or the RobbMc starter. I agree with your suggestion for an easily adjustable starter with a viewing window in the bellhousing. But, since no one has marketed this yet, my best approach was to confirm that what I have is geometrically correctly aligned. And, for those who can fit a stock Ford truck starter in their applications, an even lower cost option is available.

No question, trying to improve the alignment of the starter by relocating the mounting holes is a non-functional, unreliable solution.

Chuck

[ByronRACE]

I'm going to order to RobbMc starter on Monday.

I'll report to the group if this solves my problem as well.

Right now I'm running a very molested Ford F250 starter that was modified to move the starter gear closer to the ring gear. It works, but I did a poor job of the needed modifications (I was frustrated, and in a hurry). I was planning on buying another F250 starter, weld up the bottom hole, reposition it, and re-machine the locating ring and starter hole. Why? Because I think the ovalized hole solution eventually will cause ring gear failure when the starter finds its way back to the original position. I just don't want that risk.

If this RobbMc starter solves it, I'll be a real happy guy. If it doesn't, I'll have one for sale.

Byron

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

What flywheel are you using? Robb will ask you to measure the depth of the ring gear from the block plate to determine which pinion to install. He has two; a standard and a short pinion. After measuring mine we determined I needed a short pinion and found the reason was a recess machined on the back of my flywheel where it mounts to the crankshaft. I'm using the Ford Racing M-6375-Z460 flywheel that is actually made by McLeod. I ordered a replacement ring gear from McLeod through Summit and installed it myself. Now that I have confidence in the alignment, I expect this combo to last a long time.

I have a short summary of my investigation that I shared with Robb to confirm proper alignment in PDF form. Email me and I'll send it to you if you like.

I think you will be impressed with Robb if you talk with him. He's not only a very knowledgable guy on starters, but he's motorhead racer also. Hope this helps.

Chuck

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

I just saw your edit to the previous post about the Lakewood bellhousing:

"Also, the root-cause of this problem (according to and old timer at Tilton) is that Lakewood used an FE flyweel when mocking up their bellhousing design and has yet to fix it."

This was the path I started down, talking to Lakewood, Ford Racing and McLeod. In fact, I was all set to find a 184 tooth flywheel to replace the 176 tooth gear that I have. I turns out that the number of teeth is pretty immaterial, since the diameters of Ford flywheels, no matter how many teeth, are within about 0.020". This was all a great mystery to me until I talked with Robb and we started down the correct path of analysis. Confirming that the registration diameter on the Lakewood blockplate is in the correct location was a huge benefit and the fix fell into place after that.

I've long been blaming Lakewood for the problem, but now can blame every starter manufacturer that does not use the stock Ford design with centered pinion and the correct number of pinion teeth.

I'm a happy camper!

Chuck

[ByronRACE]

The guy at Tilton seemed pretty confident, but often confidence is the root cause for passing on misinformation. So, take that info with a grain of salt.

Your investigation work into this problem is more convincing than anything I've discovered. I wasn't willing to pull the drivetrain, nor did i have the parts available...so I lived with my hack job until now.

I'll talk to Robb soon. I'm sure he is quite knowledgeable. His product line speaks for itself. You don't come up with some of the innovations he has without being in touch with the actual need; I'm sure he is quite a motor head.

I'll pull the starter and measure the depth...or search the lab notebook I keep on the car (yeah, I'm that much of a geek) and possibly find the info there.

Thanks again, I'm looking forward to having a real solution to this; as well as an improvement. A 5:1 reduction starter is a nice piece! I'll post the results.

Byron

[Tom Wells]

Very interesting discussion, gents!

I went through four starters including the Motorsport, Nippondenso and another geared starter whose make escapes me.

The one that fixed my problem is the good old 1995 F250 460 starter.

The car has a C-6 so only the stock bellhousing is involved.

All of them worked at first! The symptom that developed after I'd used the first three starters for a week to three months, depending on the starter, it would start going "click" instead of engaging and starting the car. Interestingly, if I jumped the car from another car's battery they would often start. If I used one of those portable starting devices, it would not start.

I replaced starters, batteries, ran extra grounds (probably have an extra 50 lbs of grounds in the car now ), rewired the starting circuits - no luck. After a time the dreaded "click" would occur. Never regularly; usually when the car was hot, but seemingly at random - it would work fine for a week or so, then "click" and refuse to start.

Along the way I bought a starter from a guy in South Carolina who forgot to send me a shim - SCREECH - several phone calls later I learned about depth of tooth engagement.... A 0.050" shim solved that one.

Finally over at 460.com most of the guys suggested the plain old Ford pickup starter - it weighed less, cost less and has worked perfectly for longer than the prior three units put together.

BTW, the "click" seemed to result from the geared starters' blunt teeth. After a time the starter's pinion teeth seemed to "flat-spot" on the leading edge. When this happened, randomly I might add, SOMETIMES the starter could not pull into engagement, and when that happens, the motor windings never get energized, so the pinion can't turn. Then "click" "click" until you want to put the thing into Viking Funeral mode....

Maybe this helps, maybe not!

Tom

[ByronRACE]

Hi Byron,

The Lakewood bellhousing was designed before mini starters existed. Lakewood
could not put the mounting holes for the starter at the exact same angle as
stock (because their bellhousing doesn't have enough material in this area),
so they rotated the mounting pattern slightly. This did not matter when
using a stock starter because the nine tooth pinion gear was centered in the
4.09" register diameter. As you rotate the stock starter the distance
between the center of the starter pinion gear and the center of the flywheel
ring gear does not change.

Many of the new mini starters (including those based on Nippon Denso
starters as well as the late model Ford factory mini starters) do not use a
9 tooth pinion gear like the original stock starter. Instead they use 10 or
11 tooth pinion gears which are larger in diameter. To allow for the larger
pinion gear, the starter manufacturers offset the gear to one side rather
than having it centered in the register diameter. This works fine as long as
the mounting holes for the starter bolts are at the exact same angle as a
stock bellhousing.

The stock bellhousings use a starter locating plate (about 1/8" thick) that
goes between the engine and the bellhousing. This plate has a hole in it
(about 4.09" diameter) to positively locate the starter in the correct
location. If you put this plate on a Lakewood bellhousing you may find that
the two holes for the starter bolts don't line up because Lakewood rotated
the holes.

Our mini starter uses a 9 tooth pinion gear that is centered in the register
diameter just like the stock starter from the 1970's. So it will work even
if mounted on a Lakewood bellhousing. I recommend that you use the factory
starter locating plate, even though you may have to redrill holes in it for
the starter bolts. Using the plate will locate the starter much better than
relying on the bolts alone. Plus, if you don't use the plate, it may make
the pinion gear too close to the ring gear (longitudinally, not radially).
However, even if you don't use the plate, our starter will mesh with the
ring gear better than other mini starters.

Our pinion gear sticks out 1/2" past the mounting surface at rest. So the
ring gear should be 5/8" (plus or minus 1/16") from the starter mounting
surface. If necessary, we can substitute our short gear (which is 1/8"
shorter) when we build your starter at no extra charge. Just let us know
when you place your order. If you place your order online, the system allows
you to leave us a note.

Hope this helps,

Robb

[Woodz428]

Not sure how this relates to the problems expressed, but I have dealt with 100s of early Mustangs and there is a difference between auto and stick starters. I don't recall any gear teeth difference, but the snouts were 2 different lengths. I'm not positive without some checking of the starters in the shop, but I believe the stick starter had the longer nose on it..that would change how far the gear would engage.

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

I'm going to order to RobbMc starter on Monday.

I'll report to the group if this solves my problem as well.

Right now I'm running a very molested Ford F250 starter that was modified to move the starter gear closer to the ring gear. It works, but I did a poor job of the needed modifications (I was frustrated, and in a hurry). I was planning on buying another F250 starter, weld up the bottom hole, reposition it, and re-machine the locating ring and starter hole. Why? Because I think the ovalized hole solution eventually will cause ring gear failure when the starter finds its way back to the original position. I just don't want that risk.

If this RobbMc starter solves it, I'll be a real happy guy. If it doesn't, I'll have one for sale.

Byron

Hey Byron,

Did you order the RobbMc starter? Have you installed it? Any feedback?

I ask, because I think I need a new starter, and I want to be sure I get best one for the $$$.

Thanks,
Randy...