Fram warning

[ratsnst1]

I see all the smart guys are on here tonight, I have a question,when I do a panic stop, that meaning stopping as fast as you can, my car wants to die, engine stops running, I checked the float bowls, the fuel is at the very bottom of the window in my 850 demon carb, actually below the site glass, I have to shake the crap out of the car to get the fuel to barely show, I think maybe it needs to be at the middle of site window, if any of you guys no of anything can you please let me know.

[OZCOBRA]

It's called a CLUTCH.....Hope those smart fellows can help you out!!

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

It's called a CLUTCH.....Hope those smart fellows can help you out!!

I pull the clutch in all ready. thats just commen sense.

[OZCOBRA]

...NO REALLY!!!!!!
........IT'S CALLED HUMOUR!!!!..
As i said hopefully someone "SMART and not a SMARTARSE" can help!!

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

...NO REALLY!!!!!!
........IT'S CALLED HUMOUR!!!!..
As i said hopefully someone "SMART and not a SMARTARSE" can help!!

well I am sure I will figure it out, I just think its a fuel issue when stopping hard.

[RICK LAKE]

ratsnst1 Any change of getting a first name? Calling you RAT just doesn't work for me.
Any way Here's what is happening. You are running along at part throttle. slam on the brakes and clutch pedal at the same time.
You have cut off the air to the motor. The fuel is still begin suck in a little longer. Too much fuel, not enough air, no fire in the hole. In the old days, carb had idle kickers. They worked off vacuum or electric to stop the idle from going below an adjusted rpm when the throttle is closed. They where also used for loads on the motor like AC compressors. In the old days when that thing kicks in the idle goes up 200 rpms because of 20 hp is being used to power this.
Fuel level in the carb, it should be in the middle of the sight glass. If it's a carb with front and rear bowls the problem is the high "G" stop is pulling the fuel away from the jets on the primary side. This causes fuel starvation and kills the motor. There is no 100% fix for this. 1/4 mile racing we had this problem alot with Holley carbs. We raised the float levels as high as we could and rubber tubed the vents to stop gas from going into the motor and washing out the cylinders. It's not pretty but works.
Clutch air gap when engagement of pedal You need a .035-.050" of air gap between disc and pressure plate. Have to remember that when the clutch gets hot, some disc get grippier and will drag down the motor under stop you are doing. You didn't say what kind of control you have for the thrown out bearing and type but the engagement doesn't happen as fast as the brakes locking up. This will also kill the motor. Rearend locks up the tires driveshaft stops spinning clutch is draggiong to release, motor dies.
Any combo of these things above will cause your problem. If this happens offen, make a bracket for an idle soleniod valve that works off vaccuum. This will control the idle under hard braking.
This is one of the reason I went to FI system, computor is alot faster that you or me and controls the motor under high "G" issues without any problems Good luck Making a bracket is not hard, use the 2 front bolts of the carb for a mounting spot. The rest will be adjustments. It's not hard, will take a little time. IMO I would leave the carb alone if the motor is running good and this is the only problem you are having. Rick L.

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

ratsnst1 Any change of getting a first name? Calling you RAT just doesn't work for me.
Any way Here's what is happening. You are running along at part throttle. slam on the brakes and clutch pedal at the same time.
You have cut off the air to the motor. The fuel is still begin suck in a little longer. Too much fuel, not enough air, no fire in the hole. In the old days, carb had idle kickers. They worked off vacuum or electric to stop the idle from going below an adjusted rpm when the throttle is closed. They where also used for loads on the motor like AC compressors. In the old days when that thing kicks in the idle goes up 200 rpms because of 20 hp is being used to power this.
Fuel level in the carb, it should be in the middle of the sight glass. If it's a carb with front and rear bowls the problem is the high "G" stop is pulling the fuel away from the jets on the primary side. This causes fuel starvation and kills the motor. There is no 100% fix for this. 1/4 mile racing we had this problem alot with Holley carbs. We raised the float levels as high as we could and rubber tubed the vents to stop gas from going into the motor and washing out the cylinders. It's not pretty but works.
Clutch air gap when engagement of pedal You need a .035-.050" of air gap between disc and pressure plate. Have to remember that when the clutch gets hot, some disc get grippier and will drag down the motor under stop you are doing. You didn't say what kind of control you have for the thrown out bearing and type but the engagement doesn't happen as fast as the brakes locking up. This will also kill the motor. Rearend locks up the tires driveshaft stops spinning clutch is draggiong to release, motor dies.
Any combo of these things above will cause your problem. If this happens offen, make a bracket for an idle soleniod valve that works off vaccuum. This will control the idle under hard braking.
This is one of the reason I went to FI system, computor is alot faster that you or me and controls the motor under high "G" issues without any problems Good luck Making a bracket is not hard, use the 2 front bolts of the carb for a mounting spot. The rest will be adjustments. It's not hard, will take a little time. IMO I would leave the carb alone if the motor is running good and this is the only problem you are having. Rick L.

How I cam across all this was while I have been adjusting my brakes, not really a big problem but, if I can I would like to fix, what I will do is befor hard braking, I will put car in neutral.and I will raise the fuell level to the middle of site glass. thanks robert.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ratsnst1

I see all the smart guys are on here tonight, I have a question,when I do a panic stop, that meaning stopping as fast as you can, my car wants to die, engine stops running, I checked the float bowls, the fuel is at the very bottom of the window in my 850 demon carb, actually below the site glass, I have to shake the crap out of the car to get the fuel to barely show, I think maybe it needs to be at the middle of site window, if any of you guys no of anything can you please let me know.

With a Demon carb, you want your fuel level to be at least half the sight glass, 3/4 is acceptable........My race car with a Demon does the same thing in hard stops, so does my street car with a Holley, not too much you can do to prevent this, cept brake hard and at the last possible second, push in the clutch........

Rick is dead-on with what is happeneing, fuel slosh in the bowls,throttle blades closed, and little to no fire= motor dying out on ya.....

David

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

With a Demon carb, you want your fuel level to be at least half the sight glass, 3/4 is acceptable........My race car with a Demon does the same thing in hard stops, so does my street car with a Holley, not too much you can do to prevent this, cept brake hard and at the last possible second, push in the clutch........

Rick is dead-on with what is happeneing, fuel slosh in the bowls,throttle blades closed, and little to no fire= motor dying out on ya....

David

Do you have jet extensions? I had the same problem until I installed these in the carb. Never had the problem again. They are made for just this purpose. The best one I have seen are made by QuickFuel. I'm sure Holley makes them also.

[ack fia]

I worked for Fram for years and I have a number of "original" filter elements and parts (including the top castings). If I can help, let me know.
P.S. I do not use Fram oil filters
ACK FIA

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by ack fia

I worked for Fram for years and I have a number of "original" filter elements and parts (including the top castings). If I can help, let me know.
P.S. I do not use Fram oil filters
ACK FIA

Thank you ACK-will keep your offer in mind.
I don't think anybody that can read uses their oil filters either.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Do you have jet extensions? I had the same problem until I installed these in the carb. Never had the problem again. They are made for just this purpose. The best one I have seen are made by QuickFuel. I'm sure Holley makes them also.

no jet extensions, only the vent extensions......in the race car it's not a problem, it's a road racer, under hard braking, the clutch is always out, on my street car, it's not a real problem either, cause the way I drive it I guess.......
but I'll add some jet extensions, cain't hurt.........

thanks;

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ack fia

I worked for Fram for years and I have a number of "original" filter elements and parts (including the top castings). If I can help, let me know.
P.S. I do not use Fram oil filters
ACK FIA

Please explain why???? I've used fram oil filters for the last 30 or so years on all my vehicles, no problems so far......I'd be very interested to hear why????

First company car had 250,000 miles, other than the original factory oil filter it never had anything but a fram in it, motor was never touched......

Second company car, the same,cept it was totaled last year with 431,602 miles, motor had never been touched, no problems.....

Present company car has a little over 83,000, no problems....

Same for my trucks/wife's car.....My trucks and my wife's cars generally get around 100,000 miles before trade-in.....

As a side note; 3 or 4 years ago, there was a big write-up here about fram filters, so the next oil change I put in an AC Delco, which had the "best" rating, well after sitting overnight, my car would "rattle/knock" for the first 15 to 25 seconds on start-up!!!!!!!!!!After a couple of weeks, took the AC Delco off, put a new fram back on and have never had that or any problems since.....

David

[ERA Chas]

Since my gas filter thread is going all over Wonderland anyway-I welcome your experienced question about what is generally thought to be an inferior oil filter (meaning there are better ones out there-not that they'll kill you). I have seen a million threads where a perceived superior product is loved by a thousand guys and hated by a thousand others.

You state 'all your vehicles' use the Fram so I'm assuming you mean the race cars too. All the good evidence you give is long mileage street cars-a less demanding area. I used the AC you had difficulty with (with no such problem as yours) until the Mobil 1 was born. Been using those for about 15 years and am now about to try the K&N.

The evidence I saw was the major test by Bob the Oil Guy which revealed among other things the cardboard anti-drain valve which fails quickly and (I think) allows the filter to go to bypass full time. Other published tests I've read said that Wix, Hastings, Mobil 1 and K&N have superior construction and better elements. It's my understanding that the Frams used by the fuel teams in drag racing are completely different filters (HPG or HD?) than the street 'performance' type.

I worked for a major performance engine builder and the filtration of choice for break in and dyno testing was System One. If motors came back for warranty work the first question asked was which filter was used. They were largely Frams or worse yet no-name or offshore types.

Hopefully, ACK will give us the inside story on Fram pros and cons.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Since my gas filter thread is going all over Wonderland anyway-I welcome your experienced question about what is generally thought to be an inferior oil filter (meaning there are better ones out there-not that they'll kill you). I have seen a million threads where a perceived superior product is loved by a thousand guys and hated by a thousand others.

You state 'all your vehicles' use the Fram so I'm assuming you mean the race cars too. All the good evidence you give is long mileage street cars-a less demanding area. I used the AC you had difficulty with (with no such problem as yours) until the Mobil 1 was born. Been using those for about 15 years and am now about to try the K&N.

The evidence I saw was the major test by Bob the Oil Guy which revealed among other things the cardboard anti-drain valve which fails quickly and (I think) allows the filter to go to bypass full time. Other published tests I've read said that Wix, Hastings, Mobil 1 and K&N have superior construction and better elements. It's my understanding that the Frams used by the fuel teams in drag racing are completely different filters (HPG or HD?) than the street 'performance' type.

I worked for a major performance engine builder and the filtration of choice for break in and dyno testing was System One. If motors came back for warranty work the first question asked was which filter was used. They were largely Frams or worse yet no-name or offshore types.

Hopefully, ACK will give us the inside story on Fram pros and cons.

I respect your opinion and thoughts, just wondering "why"....anyway, on my race car I do use the Fram HP something or other "large racing filter", I change the filter every other race/track day and add the needed amount of oil and change the oil and filter every 4th race/track day, I use Mobil 1 synthetic oil in the race car and Shell Rotella T 15/40 in everything else, including my lawn mower......

My company car and truck are driven 90% hwy. and 10% city driving which is "easy" on an engine, so that doesn't hurt, my wifes car is just the opposite......

Once when the local stores were out of the fram racing filter I did use a Wix oil filter cause thats all they had and a number of my racing buddies use only that brand and swear by them, by the same token, a number of racing buddies use only the fram HP racing series filters, I guess it's a matter of choice....


I remember the thread about oil filters with Bob the Oil Guy and posed some questions to my cousin (in his late 60's now), he has been a certified aircraft mechanic in jet engine and piston engine, as well as being certified in piston engine, gas and diesel for about 40 years now. He owns 2 Dodge diesel trucks, 2 diesel engine tractors,one gas engine tractor, one diesel engine bulldozer and one gas engine bulldozer, he showed me the equipement and most all had fram oil filters on them......He said he puts more emphasis on the micron rating of a filter element than the amount in inches/feet of the element itself... If I remember right, the fram oil filter had one of the lower amounts of filter element in inches/feet, I don't remember the micron rating of the element itself....

Also, I seem to remember that most all the filters tested had a burst rate of something between 200 and 300 psi., certainly more than the pressure that any engine will create, so I didn't put much if any emphasis on the burst rating......

Not saying fram is the best filter, I'm not an engineer, but they have served me well for a long time, and I'm of the school of thought:"if it ain't broke, don't fix it"......however,if I had hard,proven data to the contrary or pointing to another brand filter, I'd certainly switch brands......

Hopefully, ACK will give us the inside story on Fram pros and cons

Agreed.........

David